Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 6:04 am Post subject: Advantages/disadvantages of using the finger ring?
As I'm building my trumpet playing skills back up, I've noticed that some players use the finger ring/loop while others don't. I do. When I've asked about it, I've been told that not using it allows more flexibility in the fingers on the valve buttons, but when I tried doing that, it feels awkward. I'm sure to some degree it's a matter of what I'm used to, but as I've seen professional players both use it and not, it got me wondering.
So..., is there an advantage or disadvantage to using/not using the finger ring/loop? Or does it come down to personal preference? _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
At risk of answering on all of your threads. I have used the finger in the hook for all of my years.
If you're most comfortable with it in the hook, try this: put your pinky somewhere comfortable on top of it (not the tippy top) and apply a slight downward force on the pinky while using the valves. This will give you the feeling of stability that you get when using the hook (as that is what you are doing when your finger is in the hook, downward force).
The only issue you put yourself at risk for when your finger is in the hook, is increased tension in the hand as a lateral(?) force (i.e., bringing your thumb and pinky together). Flexing those muscles can lend itself to keeping isometric tension in the rest of the arm and hinder production in general. But, if you don't succumb to it, nothing wrong there.
People will mention "pressure," but I can generate a massive amount of force towards the mouthpiece with my left hand alone, so I do not think it is a valid concern.
If you're most comfortable with it in the hook, try this: put your pinky somewhere comfortable on top of it (not the tippy top) and apply a slight downward force on the pinky while using the valves. This will give you the feeling of stability that you get when using the hook (as that is what you are doing when your finger is in the hook, downward force).
I haven't tried that, so will try and see how it feels. But going back to my original question, is there really an advantage to not using the ring or is it just personal preference? _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 711 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 9:46 am Post subject:
I have had teachers tell me just to use the "pinky hook" to pick up the horn or when using a mute with the left hand. I find the hook provides a stable position to insure my fingers are in the right place, especially seeing that I have a large collection of horns of different geometries and my playing is more or less divided between Bb trumpet and Eb soprano trumpet and rarely flugelhorns. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
Playing the majority of my life with my last finger firmly planted in the ring seemed very natural and caused no problems that I was aware of.
Walking away from playing altogether in 2000, I came back again in 2014 after retiring from my day gig to become a full-time caregiver for my terminally ill wife. I found that playing again gave me some "escape" time in that trumpet required much focus in order to make it work again.
Early in my comeback, several important suggestions that assisted my comeback to move along faster and smoothly were made from several of my new colleagues. Among the best and easiest to adopt pointers were posited to unleash my right hand fingering speed and accuracy by not using the pinky ring for horn support and to be more aggressive in pressing my valves. Almost 10 years later, a free right hand approach has become second nature and really works well. I tend to play lighter and have gained more control over my left hand grip in the process.
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
Almost 10 years later, a free right hand approach has become second nature and really works well. I tend to play lighter and have gained more control over my left hand grip in the process.
By "more control over my left hand grip" do you mean a more stable platform based on your left hand vs. helping support the horn by using the little finger of the right hand along with the left hand? _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm definitely in the "free the pinky" camp, only using the ring when the left hand is busy with mutes or when flipping off the conductor.
... and IMO, anyone who argues that you need the pinky in the ring to apply mouthpiece-to-face pressure is using too much of that pressure. _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music
But going back to my original question, is there really an advantage to not using the ring or is it just personal preference?
Apologies. My personal opinion is that there is no advantage either way except with pinky out, you avoid the risk I mentioned. I did a quick search on youtube and found --
Pinky IN hook: Esteban Battalan, David Bilger, Chris Martin, Tom Hooten, Wayne Bergeron, Eric Miyashiro, Wynton Marsalis, Hakan Hardenberger, Chris Coletti, Malcolm McNabb, Jens Lindemann, Phil Smith (v1), David Krauss, Bud Herseth.
Pinky OUT of the hook: Allen Vizzutti, Ole Edvard Antonsen, Brandon Ridenour, Sean Jones, also Bud Herseth
Also, it should be noted that with Rotary Trumpet you don't have a pinky ring, but IMO the ergonomics of rotary make more sense than piston (to me).
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2167 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:17 pm Post subject:
There have been posts on TH indicating that Charlie Geyer teaches his students to place the pinky in the hook to facilitate moving the first and third valve slides with little effort to ensure that the player can easily adjust intonation.
My fingers move faster when I do not have the pinky in the ring or hook shape on some trumpets. The tendons in the hand and the way the fingerd function is a factor. Move your three valve fingers as you would on the trumpet but in the air. (Fake fingering or air playing some patterns or just randomly) my pinky moves sympathetically when I do this. If that movement is inside of the ring or hook then it will move the trumpet on my face also.
My preference is to keep the pinky above or outside and not be confined.
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 302 Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:31 pm Post subject:
advantages to having your RH pinky in the ring: to keep your left hand free to move the 1st and 3rd slides (including playing a low F), turning the pages of your music without having to stop, putting in a mute, operating a wah-wah/harmon or plunger mute, helping out colleagues who drop things or turning their pages if they can't do it themselves (trombone players!!), flicking bugs off of your forehead, etc.
advantages to having your RH pinky OUT of the ring: you might be able to move your fingers a little more efficiently.
To each his own. I definitely use the pinky ring unless I'm playing something super duper technical fingerwise. _________________ 2nd Trumpet, Charlotte Symphony Orchestra
2nd Trumpet, Central City Opera Orchestra
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9381 Location: Heart of Dixie
Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 8:40 pm Post subject:
I can play tricky passages faster with my pinky out of the hook, so if I need speed, I’ll leave it out. If I don’t need speed, it’s usually in the hook. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
And no, I don't use it to help apply more pressure to my embouchure, it's just how I've always held the horn.
Last night at rehearsal I tried holding my horn both ways. I'll admit, not having my little finger in the ring feels really foreign to me, but I'm sure that's just because I've never done it regularly like that.
I did try taking the little finger out during a few more complicated runs and I can see that there is a bit more flexibility possible, as well as a slight increase in speed. But truthfully, when I tried it last night all it did was feel strange, so I'll have to practice that a bit and then see how things progress from there. _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2350 Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 5:43 am Post subject:
etc-etc wrote:
"Out", or more exactly, "atop of" pinky hook.
For plunger and heavy mutes (copper Jo-Ral), "in" can be used.
I'm in this camp too.. better agility, especially with the 3rd finger, additionally, "in" promotes more tension-right hand grabbing/clenching.. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
There have been posts on TH indicating that Charlie Geyer teaches his students to place the pinky in the hook to facilitate moving the first and third valve slides with little effort to ensure that the player can easily adjust intonation.
But going back to my original question, is there really an advantage to not using the ring or is it just personal preference?
Go to about 48 secs in and beyond - on the closeup shots you'll see Doc at various points with his pinky on the leadpipe behind the hook, inside the hook, on top of the hook, waving around in the air. You'll see the same thing on any of his videos.
But going back to my original question, is there really an advantage to not using the ring or is it just personal preference?
Go to about 48 secs in and beyond - on the closeup shots you'll see Doc at various points with his pinky on the leadpipe behind the hook, inside the hook, on top of the hook, waving around in the air. You'll see the same thing on any of his videos.
Well, if Doc does it like that, then I guess it means that just about anything goes! _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
I can play tricky passages faster with my pinky out of the hook, so if I need speed, I’ll leave it out. If I don’t need speed, it’s usually in the hook.
+1
My theory is that I'm going to use the amount of pressure I'm going to use, and having a little bit come from each hand seems better than having it all come from the left arm. 95%+ of what we play is not fast, so it doesn't make sense to me to base what I'm doing on getting a small (but sometimes necessary!) advantage on the odd tricky bit. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO
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