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Ability to Focus and Work Ethic Towards Practice


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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personality may play a part too. Some people prefer being told what to do (to the point where they’re so dependent that they ridicule those who aren’t) whereas others thrive if they’re able to take on a task on their own. Similarly, perseverence also comes in different forms. Where some are content to just grinding away the work put in front of them, while others need “fire and desire” to motivate them to tackle the challenge in front of them.

Certain combinations of character traits may contribute to a person’s ability to be succesful, and what would be their optimal road to that success.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
Personality may play a part too. Some people prefer being told what to do (to the point where they’re so dependent that they ridicule those who aren’t) whereas others thrive if they’re able to take on a task on their own. Similarly, perseverence also comes in different forms. Where some are content to just grinding away the work put in front of them, while others need “fire and desire” to motivate them to tackle the challenge in front of them.

Certain combinations of character traits may contribute to a person’s ability to be succesful, and what would be their optimal road to that success.

In my case, I've always been gig-oriented. Everything I ever prepared was with a gig in mind. Even in grade school, we had our regular school concerts and we had band class regularly, so there was always something to practice towards with perfection of the music being the goal in mind.

Then after high school, I was an Army trumpet player - there was always a gig around the corner. Then when I started freelancing, there were other gigs to consider that needed to be prepped for, particularly when I was in a wedding band - I always wanted to do my best so I worked towards that end goal in mind.

These days I gig only a handful of times a year -

-- Orchestra Concerts - 4-6/year
-- Subbing with a classic rock bar band
-- Big Band - the band is down to gigging 2-3x/year
-- Easter/Christmas? I haven't done one of these in a bit, and frankly, I'm ok with that - can't tell you all the times I missed out on family stuff because I felt I "had" to run out and play a gig. These days if the right gig comes up, I'll play it, but if the money isn't good, or it's going to interfere too much with family stuff, it's a whole lotta nope.

I still play well, but not as well as I'd play if I were still working on it.
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What responsibility moral or otherwise do you have to do something in which you believe you have nothing more to prove and have apparently decided you’ve reached the limits of your talents teacher or no teacher, while not having fun?

Put the horn away and either come back to it someday or not?
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
And it's still an awful analogy.

At this point this thread has taken a turn though - the main idea of this thread is to talk about why some people have the ability to succeed and excel due to their innate abilities for self-analysis and focus, and others don't.


Again, we can agree to disagree, and I disagree wholeheartedly that it is a bad analogy. I believe that my point is a VITAL part of the "ability to succeed and excel" regardless of the "innate abilities" or not. If you want to succeed, you must show up/not quit, it's "Success 101." Your statement: "strong work ethic towards practice and improving" is directly correlated to it, so I'm not even sure why you're disagreeing with me as it agrees with part of your "definition" to succeed. Stuartissimo highlights it well.

trickg wrote:
Or perhaps I'm 54 years old, I've been playing for 43 years . . .I don't feel like I have anything left to prove. . . I'm currently making more money doing voice work than I do playing trumpet. . . I have other things that I truly enjoy that take my time. . . You make it sound like playing trumpet is something I HAVE to continue to do, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter, so yeah - I'd say we have different approaches and outlooks on life.


Now to address this. It seems you took my thoughts on brushing my teeth as a personal attack, which was not the case. I was merely engaging in the discourse. You are free to make the choice you want. You can hang up the trumpet at any time. It was a direct response to the concept that you need "fire and desire" to continue to do something. Absolutely not a necessary component of success. So, if it helps somebody out there who is feeling burnt out after being runner up in auditions for the last 25 and doesn't want to do 26, just show up and see what happens.

Since you don't seem to be interested in my discourse, I'll bow out of this thread. All the best in your next walk in life!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The discourse is fine - the analogy was terrible. I'll stand by that assessment.

Of course a person has to show up - virtually everyone does this at some point in time for something or other. For most of us it's our day jobs. I was fortunate enough that at one point in my life, playing trumpet WAS my day job. Yes - I got to a point where there were days I didn't particularly feel like playing but I showed up, picked up the horn, and did my very best, regardless.

I'm not sure how much of your discourse is directed at me personally. I've been "showing up" to play the trumpet for over 40 years. Sure - there are a lot of folks who have been doing it for longer. Good for them.

It's not unheard of for someone to decide to put making music aside for good. The instructor of one of my friends did that. In her 50s, she just stopped playing, and never picked it back up, and this was someone who played VERY well.

In any case, I haven't put the horn down yet. I have gigs on the calendar with the classic rock band and the big band, and I'll quite likely do the next season with the Orchestra, although I won't make the spring finale concert due to a personal trip I'm taking. But I am considering it.

Rhondo brings up a good point there - there's no moral obligation to continue to play. None whatsoever. There was a point where I brought home a significant amount of money in that side hustle, but those days shifted, and I just didn't feel like hustling to fill in the gaps when the wedding band folded and stopped gigging after the Covid 19 lockdown.

In any case, I have options. I can choose to do voiceover, or gig on drums, or whatever, because I seem to somehow have acquired the tools that it takes to be able to succeed, almost regardless of the endeavor....

Except for playing guitar. That always seems to elude me on the occasions when I've tried to pick it up. Maybe I should "GET A TEECHUR!!!!!"
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
The discourse is fine - the analogy was terrible. I'll stand by that assessment.


Well, then maybe you can help me. I want to know why it is a bad analogy so I can stop using it. I prefer not to do things that do not make sense.

My reasoning
Brush teeth > teeth stay clean
Practice trumpet > trumpet playing stay good

No brush teeth > teeth go bad
No practice trumpet > trumpet playing get bad

No passion for teeth brushing, still brush teeth > teeth stay good
No passion for trumpet playing, still practice trumpet > trumpet playing stay good

Where am I going wrong?
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
trickg wrote:
The discourse is fine - the analogy was terrible. I'll stand by that assessment.


Well, then maybe you can help me. I want to know why it is a bad analogy so I can stop using it. I prefer not to do things that do not make sense.

My reasoning
Brush teeth > teeth stay clean
Practice trumpet > trumpet playing stay good

No brush teeth > teeth go bad
No practice trumpet > trumpet playing get bad

No passion for teeth brushing, still brush teeth > teeth stay good
No passion for trumpet playing, still practice trumpet > trumpet playing stay good

Where am I going wrong?

No one practices brushing their teeth to perfect it. It's not that kind of endeavor. No one performs brushing their teeth. (Well, they might, but that would just be a bit awkward and weird) We don't have people developing method books for how to refine your brushing. No one is having tooth brushing contests. I'd say very few people are passionate about oral hygiene. (I suppose there could be a side discussion about kissing that factors oral hygiene into the mix, but that's still a whole other topic.)

On the flip side, pretty much everyone with but few oddball medical exceptions is born with teeth, and teeth need to be maintained or they can go bad, although some people do happen to be born with hard, straight and white teeth. That's just a medical fact, and it's not elective.

By contrast, playing trumpet or any instrument for that matter IS elective.

For those who do decide to take up an instrument for a myriad of reasons, rare is the individual who becomes an excellent musician who has neither a passion for their instrument or a passion for music. Typically this happens during the years a person is in their main years of schooling, prior to embarking upon their adult years. Those who do decide to continue with an instrument into adulthood, I'd say virtually none of them are simply showing up - they have a passion for it or they wouldn't continue to do it.

I could go on.

If you don't have the capacity to understand why it's a bad analogy, I can't help you.
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the problem is having to brush teeth each time before playing the trumpet!

I kid, I kid. 🙂
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:


Well, then maybe you can help me. I want to know why it is a bad analogy so I can stop using it. I prefer not to do things that do not make sense. ...

---------------------------------
My view -
It's a 'cute' analogy, but not a 'good' analogy.

Basic hygiene is recognized as a fundamental daily activity. For most people the time involved doesn't have a big impact on the amount of their available discretionary time.

Trumpet practice is often a significant part of a person's discretionary time, and the person usually needs some sort of 'good reason' - even if the reason is their personal choice.

I wasn't pained, or annoyed by it, nor did I think it was particularly clever.
No big deal!
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
No one practices brushing their teeth to perfect it.

. . . it's not elective. By contrast, playing trumpet or any instrument for that matter IS elective.

If you don't have the capacity to understand why it's a bad analogy, I can't help you.


Very good rebuttal and one I mostly agree with (I highlighted the two very good insights above). That being said, I am using the teeth brushing analogy to illustrate the portion of trumpet playing (or any endeavor) that requires daily fundamental upkeep (i.e., passion as a non-requirement for trumpet upkeep). I did not intend to say that playing trumpet is analogous to brushing your teeth, just that you do not need passion to do it. At times, you can place "practice" into the category called "a fundamental daily activity" (as JayKosta puts it) in order to get through periods of "non-passion." In those periods you are not trying to "perfect it" you are simply trying to maintain.

Breaking down some of your points: competition isn't necessary for mastery, you can want to master something simply to master something. Also, for some, trumpet playing BECOMES "not-elective" (because their livelihood depends on it). I believe there are holes in your rebuttal and for that reason I'll still stick with my analogy. On a personal note, I'm still trying to perfect brushing my teeth, any task, no matter how small, has room for improvement (but that's our differing life-philosophy there).

If you do not have the capacity to understand the nuance of my argument, or you do not see how your explanation isn't sufficient and misses the mark, I can't help you.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Trumpet practice is often a significant part of a person's discretionary time, and the person usually needs some sort of 'good reason' - even if the reason is their personal choice.


Not a bad point, but doesn't address the point of my analogy, as you see explained above.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
trickg wrote:
No one practices brushing their teeth to perfect it.

. . . it's not elective. By contrast, playing trumpet or any instrument for that matter IS elective.

If you don't have the capacity to understand why it's a bad analogy, I can't help you.


Very good rebuttal and one I mostly agree with (I highlighted the two very good insights above). That being said, I am using the teeth brushing analogy to illustrate the portion of trumpet playing (or any endeavor) that requires daily fundamental upkeep (i.e., passion as a non-requirement for trumpet upkeep). I did not intend to say that playing trumpet is analogous to brushing your teeth, just that you do not need passion to do it. At times, you can place "practice" into the category called "a fundamental daily activity" (as JayKosta puts it) in order to get through periods of "non-passion." In those periods you are not trying to "perfect it" you are simply trying to maintain.

Breaking down some of your points: competition isn't necessary for mastery, you can want to master something simply to master something. Also, for some, trumpet playing BECOMES "not-elective" (because their livelihood depends on it). I believe there are holes in your rebuttal and for that reason I'll still stick with my analogy. On a personal note, I'm still trying to perfect brushing my teeth, any task, no matter how small, has room for improvement (but that's our differing life-philosophy there).

If you do not have the capacity to understand the nuance of my argument, or you do not see how your explanation isn't sufficient and misses the mark, I can't help you.

Dude, how much longer are you going to hijack my thread?

WHERE did I ever say that competition was necessary? Simply put, trumpet competitions do exist. Tooth brushing competitions do not exist.

You also seem to think that I don't understand that you don't have to have desire to maintain fundamentals and chops. I've been a pro level player for about 35 years. Yeah - I get it. The work has to be put in whether you want to do it or not IF one wants to continue to gig.

That "if" is what I'm talking about. I'm not sure I have the desire to continue to do it. I'm not positive it's still worth it to me for what I do or don't think is something I'd like to continue. The idea that trumpet playing somehow BECOMES non-elective is bollocks - it's ALWAYS a choice, and for those who don't make their living or a significant side income with it, whether or not a person continues to do it is of little consequence to anyone or anything but themselves, but it most certainly isn't a "need."

I've always believed that when a person resorts to cherry picking or arguing semantics, which is what you're currently doing, it typically means that they no longer have a valid argument, but they're trying to parse and finagle a way to somehow validate their position.

You'd offered at one point to leave the thread and cease to participate in it. That's a capital idea.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Dude, how much longer are you going to hijack my thread?


Oh, you seemed to be responding to my posts instead of ignoring them. I thought you were actively participating in the hijack. I apologize for misunderstanding.

trickg wrote:
That "if" is what I'm talking about. I'm not sure I have the desire to continue to do it.


Absolutely, if you don't have the desire or necessity, don't do it! It is not what I'm talking about.

trickg wrote:
I've always believed that when a person resorts to cherry picking or arguing semantics, which is what you're currently doing, it typically means that they no longer have a valid argument, but they're trying to parse and finagle a way to somehow validate their position.


Aren't you doing the same thing? Also a belief is not necessarily reality. You can believe you and I can believe me. We can agree to disagree.

trickg wrote:
You'd offered at one point to leave the thread and cease to participate in it. That's a capital idea.


Happy to, but if you respond, I simply do not have the will power to not respond. It's a character flaw of mine. As an offer, I'm wiling to delete all the posts up to, but not including, the first post I made in this thread. Let me know!

Peace out!
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing a musical instrument takes a lot of time so it's little wonder that at some point a person would question whether it's worth it. Especially for professional players, the amount of time invested is huge. And while it may be elective, it can feel mandatory to keep going because quitting would mean all that effort would be wasted. Scaling down helps to avoid making the decision, but the downside of 'wasted potential' (as trickg has mentioned) is still there; and it then becomes a matter of making music at a lower skill level is still as enjoyable.

I suppose another downside of having practiced/played that much is that a point of saturation is reached much sooner than an amateur would. It would probably take me several lifetimes just to catch up with the amount of playing trickg has done. And at some point, 'been there, done that' becomes an actual thing. Which sadly also means I have little advice to offer, as I've yet to reach the point where you're at. I suppose it comes down to whether playing at the level you're at with less practice gives you more satisfaction than frustration. And on the other hand, there's something to be said for hanging up the horn and doing all those things you missed out on earlier in life. Maybe taking a break would give you some insight as to whether you would miss playing if you quit?
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not sure hanging up the trumpet is a bad thing if the „fire and desire“ is not around anymore. After all, us rich westerners generally have a lot more options to make a living than most people in this world. So, if there is something that lets you make a decent living that is more appealing to you, do it. Why not?

There are people, also in the music world, who seem to have done it. Maite Hontele all but disappeared from the music scene although I would have loved to hear more music from her. Even Miles took a break

The “been there, done that” may sneak up on you in almost every profession and is certainly not tied to musical careers.
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