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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1538 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: Newer Bach Strad redrot |
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Hello all,
A friend of mine with a newer Bach Strad, showed me his horn a few months ago that had some odd silver imperfections on his leadpipe. He had the horn chem cleaned a week ago, and the imperfections were redrot. You can see the rough, sandpaper like surface when you look down the inside of the pipe. Serial is in the 774x,xxx range. The horn is a 37, reverse leadpipe horn that he bought new. His older 40 plus year old Bach, does not have that problem, so I know that it is not just his chemistry. Anybody else have this problem in their similar age horn??? _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 267
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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Mine is 739XXX, said to be a 2017 model that had the leadpipe replaced because of red rot before I got it in 2021. I don’t know how serious it was- possible it was just cost effective to replace the leadpipe before sale.
Bought it from Clay at centexbrass who is pretty good about describing condition and history of the horns he sells. This was a standard configuration 37 he had converted to reverse leadpipe in the process. If I recall the previous owner was a high school student but not sure that was a cause of anything.
Bachs of recent years have had some quality control issues; I haven’t heard of red rot being common. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1891
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:23 am Post subject: |
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On a silver leadpipe, you would see bubbling on the outside. On the inside, there would be craters, that will correspond with the bubbling on the outside. Sandpaper? I haven't heard of that.
Red rot is caused by not drying the leadpipe after playing. Some people will cause red rot, others won't. Maybe the person that didn't have red rot on an older horn but got it on a newer horn, developed a different body chemistry, or ate foods that he didn't eat before. You need to dry the leadpipe and tuning crook after playing. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1811
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:44 am Post subject: |
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I bought an unplayed 707xxx that began to develop red rot in 6months of playing. Just for the stats. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1891
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:56 am Post subject: |
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I rotted out a Bach leadpipe in a year. That's when I started using a swab. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2351 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I had read/heard, I can't remember where nor can I verify it's accuracy, that Bach had an issue with a batch of leadpipes on some new Bb's.
I found this after my 2014-ish trumpet started showing signs of red rot on the leadpipe. I haven't had this issue with other trumpets, so I can dismiss my body chemistry.. And it's only in the leadpipe, no where else on the trumpet.
A note, I am prepared to replace the leadpipe if and when the pipe loses functionality - but so far it's just a little cosmetic problem - This is my everyday trumpet-I play a lot. 10 years and still going strong _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1811
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | I rotted out a Bach leadpipe in a year. That's when I started using a swab. |
Not sure if this was a response to me, but there is evidence of redrot on all over the horn (including the bell) is not just the leadpipe. I use a swab, for the stats.
zaferis wrote: | but so far it's just a little cosmetic problem |
Same |
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Brent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 1105 Location: St. Paul, MN
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:40 am Post subject: Red Rot |
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Maintenance will help, but sometimes I think it's bad luck.
Someone told me manufacturer's can simply get a bad batch of brass, which is going to lead to problems like red rot. Way back in the early 90's, a sales rep said there was a period where Yamaha had a huge issue with red rot. I think Bach and Kanstul had similar episodes. _________________ Brent |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3655 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Newer Bach Strad redrot |
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Christian K. Peters wrote: | Hello all,
A friend of mine with a newer Bach Strad, showed me his horn a few months ago that had some odd silver imperfections on his leadpipe. He had the horn chem cleaned a week ago, and the imperfections were redrot. You can see the rough, sandpaper like surface when you look down the inside of the pipe. Serial is in the 774x,xxx range. The horn is a 37, reverse leadpipe horn that he bought new. His older 40 plus year old Bach, does not have that problem, so I know that it is not just his chemistry. Anybody else have this problem in their similar age horn??? |
I've seen rot or dezincification, develop quickly in Bach leadpipes only a year old. But I will say if your friend's leadpipe looks like sandpaper inside, they didn't use a strong enough chemical to clean it. If it's an ultrasound bath, it doesn't remove corrosion such as this very well. I use muriatic acid (hydrochloric) for leadpipes, tuning slides, etc. With advanced rot, such as Irving said, you see a smooth interior with small craters where the zinc is leaching. It's an old technique, but highly effective. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 664 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | I bought an unplayed 707xxx that began to develop red rot in 6months of playing. Just for the stats. |
Very sad to read this. Today I bought a Selmer M 066 from the mid 60's so the horn is at least 60 years old. Lots of wear on the silver plating, the horn is well used but NO RED ROT NOWHERE
Go figure... _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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There is a tendency to label a wide variety of issues as "red rot". As @yourbrass has noted with the excellent description of red rot, the OP's description does not match rot, but rather corrosion build-up inside, and there is too little info to speculate regarding the plating. (No craters inside and no pinhole centers to the exterior splotches = not red rot)
Similarly whenever someone, as @abontrumpet stated, notes "all over the horn", which implies exterior assessment, this is almost always acid staining from the environment in which the horn is kept (case materials can do this), or if plated, poor pre-plating prep. Red rot concentrates where the acidic contaminants do - in the leadpipe and tuning slide crook. Even dispersion is inconsistent with the mechanism of red rot.
As @zaferis noted, sometimes the brass itself can be contaminated by the supplier, or in handling, and can lead to issues with poor plating adhesion, accelerated corrosion, and even red rot (though rot far less often than the others). It does happen, but poor care, such as one sees with a teenager, as I believe Clay detailed being the case with the horn @Rhondo mentions is still the leading cause of rot.
And, of course, I have to mention - though I believe the OP indicates a timing after the damage was noted - improper chem cleans can also cause loss of zinc just as excess time in an ultrasonic can exploit any pre-existing. Cleaning has to be done carefully by a skilled tech. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 267
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Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Fwiw, Clay didn’t know the cause of the previous red rot in the horn I bought, and mentioned it could have been body chemistry. |
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trumpetera Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1214 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I find it interesting to note that all my swedish type Eb and Bb cornets I play in period brass ensembles are more than 100 years old, they have all lived a LONG life with many different players of different generations. None had been "swabbed" or ultrasonically cleaned. Ever.
NONE of them have this problem. Ore have had, all parts are original to the instruments.
It leads me to think it has to do with the alloy, and maybe the fact that the brass used today is of lesser quality. Or that the "Skultuna-mässing" (brass made in the brass works of Skultuna, Sweden) was of the very excellent quality they advertised in the 1800's...
FWIW, my 1980 Bach stead I got for christmas as a 10 year old, and still uses every day in my work have no red rot whatsoever. In a few years time, I will have to patch the lead pipe, but that's because I'm wearing it through from the outside... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3655 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetera wrote: | I find it interesting to note that all my swedish type Eb and Bb cornets I play in period brass ensembles are more than 100 years old, they have all lived a LONG life with many different players of different generations. None had been "swabbed" or ultrasonically cleaned. Ever.
NONE of them have this problem. Ore have had, all parts are original to the instruments.
It leads me to think it has to do with the alloy, and maybe the fact that the brass used today is of lesser quality. Or that the "Skultuna-mässing" (brass made in the brass works of Skultuna, Sweden) was of the very excellent quality they advertised in the 1800's...
FWIW, my 1980 Bach stead I got for christmas as a 10 year old, and still uses every day in my work have no red rot whatsoever. In a few years time, I will have to patch the lead pipe, but that's because I'm wearing it through from the outside... |
BUT, it might have to do with personal chemistry. I've seen players who literally eat the metal, both with their saliva and sweat. Others simply have acids in their breath that cause leaching of zinc to a great degree. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12681 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | BUT, it might have to do with personal chemistry. I've seen players who literally eat the metal, both with their saliva and sweat. Others simply have acids in their breath that cause leaching of zinc to a great degree. |
I don’t believe you saw my strad when Larry repaired and had Anderson replate it, but my sweat ate through the silver and pitted the underlying brass.
Fortunately I no longer have that issue. |
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trumpetera Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1214 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 10:29 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | trumpetera wrote: | I find it interesting to note that all my swedish type Eb and Bb cornets I play in period brass ensembles are more than 100 years old, they have all lived a LONG life with many different players of different generations. None had been "swabbed" or ultrasonically cleaned. Ever.
NONE of them have this problem. Ore have had, all parts are original to the instruments.
It leads me to think it has to do with the alloy, and maybe the fact that the brass used today is of lesser quality. Or that the "Skultuna-mässing" (brass made in the brass works of Skultuna, Sweden) was of the very excellent quality they advertised in the 1800's...
FWIW, my 1980 Bach stead I got for christmas as a 10 year old, and still uses every day in my work have no red rot whatsoever. In a few years time, I will have to patch the lead pipe, but that's because I'm wearing it through from the outside... |
BUT, it might have to do with personal chemistry. I've seen players who literally eat the metal, both with their saliva and sweat. Others simply have acids in their breath that cause leaching of zinc to a great degree. |
I believe you are correct about that, but still- these are 150+ year old instruments with generations of different players handling them, and I have actually never come across one with red rot. Polishe paper thin, completely worn out valve-yes- but no red rot...
Weird... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural |
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Ronnman Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2019 Posts: 415 Location: SE Louisiana
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Could it be a difference in (lower) lead content of the brass?
Ron _________________ Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014 |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3655 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ronnman wrote: | Could it be a difference in (lower) lead content of the brass?
Ron |
From what I've read, lead has been used in brass to make mouthpieces because it's easier to machine an alloy including a small amount of lead.
But it's really not a good idea, as any direct contact with lead can lead to health problems.
Bells and other parts, I don't think most makers use lead in the alloy. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | Ronnman wrote: | Could it be a difference in (lower) lead content of the brass?
Ron |
From what I've read, lead has been used in brass to make mouthpieces because it's easier to machine an alloy including a small amount of lead.
But it's really not a good idea, as any direct contact with lead can lead to health problems.
Bells and other parts, I don't think most makers use lead in the alloy. |
Lead is essential to creating uniform and smooth mouthpieces. Lead appears in vintage instrument brass sporadically, and can have beneficial impacts on the tonal spectrum in certain circumstances. However, it is in the solder that lead is common in vintage instruments - and plays an acoustic role that modern solder cannot replicate.
Lead is vulnerable to acids much like zinc. Older horns often suffer from deteriorated joints because of the lead failure in the solder brought about by acids in saliva. It certainly would not protect brass against rot.
I personally prefer lead solder for the effect on the performance of the system as a whole, and I would not want a lead-free mouthpiece as I am certain it would either be poor quality, or astoundingly expensive (like stainless). Unless you drop your mouthpiece in a glass of mildly acidic water and let it sit for a few days and then drink that water, there is no way you will ever encounter lead from that piece. The hysteria over lead, which Romans and Greeks used for drinking water pipes - come to think of it so did my last house - is blown way out of proportion. Yes, lead causes neurologic damage - SO DON'T EAT IT! _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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J. Landress Brass Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2006 Posts: 428 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Red rod is more common now because of chemicals used in factories in the production process of the instruments. Things like pickles to remove soft solder or braze can make the metal more prone to dezincification (red rot). The reason you do not see it in 100+ years old instruments is generally from the use of different chemicals and more hand work to remove such buildups. If you ever take apart a 120+ year old instrument you will often find file marks and other imperfection in the mental under the braces and solder joints. This is becasue the instrument were assembled rough and then cleaned up by hand. _________________ Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com
Last edited by J. Landress Brass on Thu May 09, 2024 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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