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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 167
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | rhatheway wrote: | | Are those pocket trumpets and cornets actually playable like that, or is it really more of an exercise in showing how compact you can wrap the pipes? |
How dare you!
Just kidding. 
They are all playable. The only caveat I would add is that some have less precise intonation (as well as differences in other playing characteristics such as projection, feedback, response, range, etc.) compared to conventional horns due to compromises imposed by their designs. On the other hand, some play quite well (the Benge pocket trumpet is an example -- you can read more about it here: https://www.robbstewart.com/benge-pocket-trumpets. I have one of these, from the Burbank era when Donald Benge still owned the company.)
Just to give you an extreme example of 'unexpected playability', here is Jeff Stockham playing a King Mini-Liberty (a half-sized King Liberty trumpet made in very small numbers by H. N. White company in the late 20's-early 30's as a gift for King artists and successful H. N. White salespeople):
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Ya know, if you didn't know that King in the video was a mini-trumpet, it almost sounds like a clarinet! Blasphemy, I know, but just saying... 
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | I wonder how the different wraps affect the way the instrument plays.
For instance there are slides with differing shapes on the radius of the main tuning slides on Bachs and other instruments. Full radius and D shaped for instance. |
I certainly don't know everything about how wrap affects how an instrument plays, but here are some observations I've made over the past 15 years or so:
1) Tight radii add brilliance to timbre. Some examples are Schilke B series trumpets, WT flugelhorn vs. Kanstul 1025 flugelhorn. Concerning Schilke trumpets, the valve tubing half-tone bowls are very tight radius, as are the tuning slide crook and bell bow. These trumpets all have a very brilliant component to their sound. An extreme case similar to this would be early "pea-shooter" designs. In the case of the two flugelhorn designs, there are only a few differences between the two models, but the most telling is the decreasing radius bend of the bell bow on the 1025, as opposed to the constant radius of the Wild Thing. I've owned both and the Kanstul has a definite rise in impedance above the staff that isn't present on the Wild Thing.
2) Open radii add smooth consistency to impedance response and timbre. The most accessible example of this is when we compare a single radius tuning slide to a D-shape or especially a "square" bend. The single radius gives a lyrical response that is less structured than the D or square bends, the square giving the most defined note slotting, in most cases. Another example is the shepherd crook cornet wrap, such as the Wild Thing, Kanstul 1530 or the Benge 8Z. Compared to, say, the American Long Cornet that Flip Oakes offered alongside his Short Cornet, the open bends of the bell and valve tubing gave the Shepherds Crook Short Cornet a noticeably more smooth sound and response.
3) Though more difficult to quantify, it also matters where the designer places the valve block along the length of the instrument. One of the unique elements of the Flip Oakes Wild Thing, Celebration and Inspiration trumpets was that the valves were mounted closer to the bell rim than is typical; more closely related to a cornet wrap. The greater length of tubing leading to the valves and the shorter length after them gave the Wild Thing it's unique shape. The classic Martin Committee wrap places the valves even closer to the mouthpiece than the WT or standard designs, which immediately gives that horn an intimate feel that pulls the player into the lyrical romance we all dream of when we hear Chet or Chris playing the ballads that make us lust after those horns. |
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Like I commented on something else earlier, I haven't discussed this much physics since my college days! But it's fascinating to see it applied in a real-world application like this.
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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rhatheway
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Those are cool, thanks!
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1937
Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: | | Ya know, if you didn't know that King in the video was a mini-trumpet, it almost sounds like a clarinet! Blasphemy, I know, but just saying... |
Not blasphemy at all -- others have said that it sounds like a kazoo . . . or a duck!
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:57 am Post subject: |
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I’ve noticed that many cornets tend to split the non-valve tubing lengths in a ratio of around 2/3 leadpipe to 1/3 bell, while trumpets tend to have the leadpipe and bell lengths about equal.
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