... but what has helped learn to play notes up there is the feeling that it feels the same to me pressure wise as when i play low C, they just don't feel that different. ... i play strictly by how it feels and its always my goal to make every note feel like second line g to my mouth. ...
--------------------------------
I don't understand your description of every note feeling the same. Especially if you consciously strive to have every note have the feeling of second line G.
I imagine that you do have to make some physical changes moving from note to note and I'm curious about what 'guides' you to make the needed adjustment. Do you devote your attention solely on the pitch of the note, and the adjustments just happen - and you do not detect any change to the feel?
I understand the usefulness of that approach while playing within your 'good range', but what about when playing notes that aren't as secure?
I'm asking because this might be an important part of how various people are taught / learn / develop / etc.
Sorry for the slow reply, been busy catching bass. jay, i play strictly by feel. all my playing is based around bill adam leadpipe playing. that feel when doing his leadpipe exercise is what i am talking about. the notes all feel like a second line g when playing the leadpipe. the small amount of my lips that vibrate just feels like a second line g when i play any note.
sorry i don't have a more technical answer to help with this. i just play and not often but following the bill adam basic stuff i can always play up to G over high C. this is playing the notes, not hitting them, when i figure out how to add a sound file i will give an example. air is coming from the back of my throat, so not disturbing my lips too much.
Thank you very much for all your advice. During the week I tried to apply some of them and also to play with the mouthpiece a little higher. I have a little more stamina playing like that but I press my lips more. And by finding a position between, I manage to play the same notes. So maybe the problem is that I use too much air because using less but controlling it more, I get the same result.
He says he was not a natural.
20 albums decades of amazing high note endurance
What does he say? (Every day I think how can I make this easier?)
——— gear and cup shape size etc may come up someday in your quest depending on what it is you want to do but for now mechanics seems like the focus at hand.
Roger demonstrates Octave Glissandos which are a great Range exercise recommended by him as well as Bobby Shew, Brian MacDonald ad nauseum. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
He says he was not a natural.
20 albums decades of amazing high note endurance
What does he say? (Every day I think how can I make this easier?)
——— gear and cup shape size etc may come up someday in your quest depending on what it is you want to do but for now mechanics seems like the focus at hand.
something to consider, jim manley uses small id mouthpieces, as do i, my id is .590- .600, this is small for most people. but still produces big sound.
Yes he does. We spoke a lot over the last two years which I will be forever grateful for. Wish I would have learned about the Bill Adam stuff 30 yrs ago.
During that time I progressively went from .660 70m to 70s to 60 s 50s 30s then to the mpc I use now which is his same JMZ14 as him at or around .600.
My low G has never been more full.
This kid needs mechanics help with his golf swing and may or may not start thinking about cup shape and size concurrently.
————-
GREAT Roger Ingram clip for this thread. (Downloading that one)
Roger Ingram uses a small ID mpc too. Reason being “right tool for the job” efficiency etc. etc. one would guess right?
Again too much air. I cannot say how many times Jim told me I was using too much air…. Almost so many times I would get upset! He was right every time.
If someone watches more Manley vids they will see him exhale ALL of his air.. then blow a phenomenal note. How? Well do like Jim does and tap your palm on the horn…. Thats all it takes to activate the standing wave.
Same thing Roger Ingram is saying/ quoting….. only take in what you need to sustain the pitch.
Imagine what effect these concepts have to endurance and range.
... but what has helped learn to play notes up there is the feeling that it feels the same to me pressure wise as when i play low C, they just don't feel that different. ... i play strictly by how it feels and its always my goal to make every note feel like second line g to my mouth. ...
--------------------------------
I don't understand your description of every note feeling the same. Especially if you consciously strive to have every note have the feeling of second line G.
I imagine that you do have to make some physical changes moving from note to note and I'm curious about what 'guides' you to make the needed adjustment. Do you devote your attention solely on the pitch of the note, and the adjustments just happen - and you do not detect any change to the feel?
I understand the usefulness of that approach while playing within your 'good range', but what about when playing notes that aren't as secure?
I'm asking because this might be an important part of how various people are taught / learn / develop / etc.
Sorry for the slow reply, been busy catching bass. jay, i play strictly by feel. all my playing is based around bill adam leadpipe playing. that feel when doing his leadpipe exercise is what i am talking about. the notes all feel like a second line g when playing the leadpipe. the small amount of my lips that vibrate just feels like a second line g when i play any note.
sorry i don't have a more technical answer to help with this. i just play and not often but following the bill adam basic stuff i can always play up to G over high C. this is playing the notes, not hitting them, when i figure out how to add a sound file i will give an example. air is coming from the back of my throat, so not disturbing my lips too much.
not sure if i'm dong this right, but attached an EWF tune as example, all the notes in this tune "feel" the same to my lips. like a 2nd line G. from the lowest to the highest. the solo isn't high, but these notes are very close together. want to thank Jim Manley, especially Kieth Fiala and Willie Murillo for great encouragement and advice. But Bill Adam changed it all.
its a hal leonard backing track, btw, with a few over dubs
That along with what you said “not playing often” yet able to play well.
Learning the resistance allows that instead of fighting the horn.
(Ie James Morrison can apparently take a long time off of the horn then come back to it and sound great as usual)
I can hear some of that cool Fiala sound in there and for a moment felt like turning on some of Hubbard’s Red Clay as a good follow up in that groove.
That air column control in the back of the mouth is another aspect of this instead of always focusing on the lips. Once that feel is there its actually a good thing not to disturb or change the lips much when trying to go high. Sometimes we could have had the high note but we freak out and tweak the lips. Can’t imagine Ingram or Manley disturbing the chops much on those glissandi.
That along with what you said “not playing often” yet able to play well.
Learning the resistance allows that instead of fighting the horn.
(Ie James Morrison can apparently take a long time off of the horn then come back to it and sound great as usual)
I can hear some of that cool Fiala sound in there and for a moment felt like turning on some of Hubbard’s Red Clay as a good follow up in that groove.
That air column control in the back of the mouth is another aspect of this instead of always focusing on the lips. Once that feel is there its actually a good thing not to disturb or change the lips much when trying to go high. Sometimes we could have had the high note but we freak out and tweak the lips. Can’t imagine Ingram or Manley disturbing the chops much on those glissandi.
Great playing
thanks man, i really appreciate the kind words, my goal now is to let people know that all this can be done, it can be figured out. reach out to the pros with good questions, they will answer you, and those answers should give you insight into how to approach this, but i try to tell these things in the most easy way i can word them, maybe it;s not so accurate for the technical types, but again i play by feel. in the end keep asking questions and keep trying new things is the way to find your sound.
You’re welcome. Same here and they really do respond to a student willing to work. I drive a semi for a living so I talk a certain way because people die if & when we make mistakes. I don’t miss academia, egos, distraction, and rabbit holes so I am what I am.
You’re welcome. Same here and they really do respond to a student willing to work. I drive a semi for a living so I talk a certain way because people die if & when we make mistakes. I don’t miss academia, egos, distraction, and rabbit holes so I am what I am.
Cheers
very cool, my young brother is new to driving semi's, great composer and keyboards, i always wanted to drive a Peterbilt !!!
good luck in your travels !!!
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1173 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:08 am Post subject:
That sounds great. But here's what I hear, being picky:
I think you're tuning your horn just a hair sharp and then playing a hair under the center. The pitch is just on the verge of being high but you're constantly drifting it down a little bit under where the horn wants to be.
You've taken the relaxation a little too far and that in itself will affect endurance because you're constantly controlling your pitch instead of staying in the center focus.
This sounds pretty good to my ears. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Last edited by cheiden on Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:10 am Post subject:
Doug Elliott wrote:
That sounds great. But here's what I hear, being picky:
I think you're tuning your horn just a hair sharp and then playing a hair under the center. The pitch is just on the verge of being high but you're constantly drifting it down a little bit under where the horn wants to be.
You've taken the relaxation a little too far and that in itself will affect endurance because you're constantly controlling your pitch instead of staying in the center focus.
Interesting. I felt the held notes were flat. I checked with a tuner and confirmed it. For that reason I couldn't enjoy the playing. My conclusion was that the player was doing so for effect. I hear that regularly in players. I guess it doesn't bother everyone. But your explanation above might account for it too. _________________ Richard
That sounds great. But here's what I hear, being picky:
I think you're tuning your horn just a hair sharp and then playing a hair under the center. The pitch is just on the verge of being high but you're constantly drifting it down a little bit under where the horn wants to be.
You've taken the relaxation a little too far and that in itself will affect endurance because you're constantly controlling your pitch instead of staying in the center focus.
Thanks doug for taking the time to offer some insight to my playing. Your probably correct in your analysis, but i just don't play that much anymore, so rarely am i concerned about endurance, i just play for fun these days and not enough to worry about if my technique is spot on, it for my own amusement, i was in a number of bands (R&B stuff) and practiced alot but covid got rid of them and most of the guys moved away from NY, so now i fish for bass, instead of practicing, when i do woodshed my sound and pitch comes back to normal pretty quickly. My whole point and maybe i just stated it incorrectly is that playing without a lot of pressure is doable, thus my comparison to the feel of a second line g.
anyway thanks again,
tom
PS DOUG, Nice Mouthpieces, also Nice playing with the Airmen !!
Last edited by krell1960 on Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
That sounds great. But here's what I hear, being picky:
I think you're tuning your horn just a hair sharp and then playing a hair under the center. The pitch is just on the verge of being high but you're constantly drifting it down a little bit under where the horn wants to be.
You've taken the relaxation a little too far and that in itself will affect endurance because you're constantly controlling your pitch instead of staying in the center focus.
Interesting. I felt the held notes were flat. I checked with a tuner and confirmed it. For that reason I couldn't enjoy the playing. My conclusion was that the player was doing so for effect. I hear that regularly in players. I guess it doesn't bother everyone. But your explanation above might account for it too.
boy you low brass guys are critical, lolol,
yes i was bending those notes for effect. not to your liking i see, but thats ok. thanks for taking a listen.
I'm not a pro, i hardly play anymore, but when i see people struggling for years to get to "high notes" i want to offer encouragement that it is attainable. i could not play notes above high c in college, 40 years ago, but it can be figured out, i may not be perfectly in tune when i record but the notes are there with minimal effort.
leave you all with this, recorded with two different curry mouthpieces for the solo part, you will here when it changes.
If albums for sale produced by sony, geffen, or blue note were a requirement to post on TrumpetHerald nearly none of us would be here.
In fact when I see anyone post a video or audio clip OF THEIR OWN PLAYING anyone can judge for themself where they are in their musical journey and it gives a little more weight to chiming in. Its very respectable to put your music where your mouth is. 👍
1st truck was a ‘15 peterbilt 18 spd. He is going to love driving. It is literally a practice room on wheels with the entire landscape as a person’s backyard. 1 hr practice at a shipper, 1 hr at a receiver, & mandatory 10 hrs off each day to sleep and practice more.
The OP has learned more in this one thread here than I would have found online in the nineties searching the entire web. If he is serious he will build on it.
[quote="kehaulani"]Just thinking out loud, because I just don't know.
I do not mean to make light of any post above or to seem inappreciative of the good will and time put into it - and I might have missed something that would negate my post - but I see nothing to lead me to believe that the OP is a Reinhardt guy. So, I would think there is some background needed to understand these "Reinhardt-ish" concepts.
I've learned just enough of Reinhardt's concepts to know that, if I'm going to apply them, I would need to 1) know a whole lot more about then and 2) to only develop them, [i]in person[/i] with a Reinhardt expert.
I'm not sure how much of Reinhardt's concepts the OP can safely apply unguided.[/quote]
The OP should NOT apply Reinhardt concepts in the technical sense, because the OP is not a "naturally louder and higher" player from what I understand.
would you not agree that Reinhardt is only an "aspect encapsulator", and runs the risk of bringing with it the old embouchure of the player?
Despite the fact that the Reinhardt method is an encapsulation of numerous methods, it allows for "natural discovery" and "self analysis", from a classical perspective.
Perhaps a "Reinhardt Light" (as in Cola Light) might be better or perhaps to use "Reinhardt Light" for "slotting" or "in between" notes.
For the OP the following methods may help:
* wedge 'pivot' approach
* compression excercises
* buzzing tone & compression
* flugelhorn practice & playing
* Chuck Findley method
For the OP, perhaps a trumpet in the style of van Laar might help:
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lolol,