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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | Sometimes I wonder what instrument builders must think when they’d read discussions like these.
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Probably two things:
1) I guess at least some people really are still interested in this kind of stuff.
2) I better start adding a dictionary to my website to help provide more info and clarity around all these terms!
 
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | Most modern shepherd’s crook cornets have a more mellow sound than “American wrap” cornets, because people expect them to sound that way and the manufacturers oblige. More bends in the tubing may take a bit of the edge off the tone, but the main factor is how conical the tubing and the bell are. A cornet that starts out with a smaller leadpipe entrance and tapers to a larger bore (even tapering through the tuning slide) all the way to the valve block is more conical than one that doesn’t. Add a bell with a faster taper, and you have the main ingredients for a mellow cornet. Brace placement and the metals used can also affect the characteristics of a good cornet.
Many, if not most “American wrap” cornets aren’t quite as conical as their shepherd’s crook counterparts, and have a more trumpet-like bell taper. Of course, mouthpiece selection and individual embouchures are a variable that can greatly affect the sound from any cornet (or trumpet). |
Do the additional bends slow down the air, which is why the tone may be darker? Or is it how conical the tubing and bell are that really makes that difference?
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| JWG wrote: | To correct some misstatements above, Cornets are not more conical than trumpets . . . surveys of hundreds of instruments have put that myth to bed and confirmed that trumpets have a more conical taper due to single wrap designs having a longer bell tail that allows for a more conical design.
Cornets have a double wrap while trumpets have a single wrap, and this design feature accounts for their mellower, darker timbre.
The Shepard's crook design gives Cornets even more radius bends which further darkens their sound.
Imagine the fundamental tone frequency and accompanying overtone frequencies that comprise any standing sound wave. Those frequencies vibrate within the air molecules in one's horn, just as pond water vibrates across the expanse of the pond when disturbed. Unlike woodwinds, brass instruments constrain their standing waves within the confines of the brass tubing itself.
You can imagine every radius bend as lengthening the lower frequency tones around the outside of the radius and compressing the higher frequency tones along the inside radius. Bends in brass tubing extenuate lower frequencies and extinguish and/or dampen higher frequencies.
Since French horns and cornets wrap at least twice, they have a mellower sound than trumpets that wrap only once. |
This reminds me of my college physics courses. I haven't talked about standing wavelengths, FFTs, and things like that for decades!
So..., just to make sure I understand what you're saying, more bends + longer length = darker tone?
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | The shepherd's crook is a nod/throwback to an earlier style of cornet wrap that used Stölzel piston valves. Stölzel valves, invented in 1800s, had one port at the bottom and two switchable ports on the side. The section of tubing going to the bell from first valve bottom port had to be wrapped 270° around, resembling a shepherd's crook.
Stölzel valves had a bore step at the boundary between the piston / casing and a 90° or 135° turn within the piston, making them much stuffer than the later invented and still currently used Périnet valves.
Other than a "pretty" shape and the ability to collect water "in the dip" the shepherd crook is not contributing much to the sound. Unless, of course, you listen with your eyes. |
Do you know of any visual diagrams of this (the Stölzel piston valves and switchable ports)? Conceptually I understand what you describe, but seeing a diagram or picture would be helpful.
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:10 am Post subject: Re: What's so special about shepherds crook cornets? |
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| rhatheway wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: |
Literally all modern "short model" brass band cornets have a shepherd's crook. You also get "American style" often referred to as "long model cornets", although a true long model cornet is no longer made as far as I'm aware, and basically looked like a trumpet, but had a cornet mouthpiece receiver.
An American style cornet has no shepherd's crook, and the bell extends further.
i.e.
Take care and best wishes
Lou
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Lou, thanks for the examples, that helps me to better understand the differences!
Hi rhatheway
You are very welcome.
Now I have another question, based on your reply. The "long cornet" or "American style" cornet, is there a length specification that these horns typically adhere to?
No.
Or in other words, how much longer is a "long" cornet vs a standard cornet? |
To answer your second question, some true "long model" cornets are indistinguishable from a trumpet in appearance, but take a cornet mouthpiece.
Some long model cornets, like the Conn cornets, looked like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154575756838?
https://reverb.com/uk/item/63144830-c-g-conn-connstellation-28a-long-cornet-1963-conn-4-mouthpiece-gamonbrass?
Note the tuning slide in the same position as with a trumpet, rather than the cornet having the extra wrap, which puts the tuning slide at the back like the Bach 181:
https://prozonemusic.com/products/vincent-bach-stradivarius-long-model-cornet-ml-bore-in-lacquer
I don't believe that true long model cornets are made nowadays, and what is often referred to as a long model cornet, is actually an "American cornet", e.g. a cornet with the wrap of a short model cornet, but no shepherd's crook, and the bell generally extending further.
Take care and best wishes
Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rhatheway
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:16 am Post subject: Re: What's so special about shepherds crook cornets? |
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| Louise Finch wrote: |
Literally all modern "short model" brass band cornets have a shepherd's crook. You also get "American style" often referred to as "long model cornets", although a true long model cornet is no longer made as far as I'm aware, and basically looked like a trumpet, but had a cornet mouthpiece receiver.
An American style cornet has no shepherd's crook, and the bell extends further.
Hi rhatheway
You are very welcome.
Now I have another question, based on your reply. The "long cornet" or "American style" cornet, is there a length specification that these horns typically adhere to?
No.
To answer your second question, some true "long model" cornets are indistinguishable from a trumpet in appearance, but take a cornet mouthpiece.
Note the tuning slide in the same position as with a trumpet, rather than the cornet having the extra wrap, which puts the tuning slide at the back like the Bach 181:
I don't believe that true long model cornets are made nowadays, and what is often referred to as a long model cornet, is actually an "American cornet", e.g. a cornet with the wrap of a short model cornet, but no shepherd's crook, and the bell generally extending further.
Take care and best wishes
Lou |
Thanks Lou, very helpful! I appreciate the clarification. I never knew there was even such a thing as a long cornet until I joined TH, so I'm really learning a lot!
What's the reason for having a long cornet that is almost the same as a trumpet, but with a cornet mp receiver? A darker overall tone?
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| JWG wrote: | | To correct some misstatements above, Cornets are not more conical than trumpets . . . surveys of hundreds of instruments have put that myth to bed and confirmed that trumpets have a more conical taper due to single wrap designs having a longer bell tail that allows for a more conical design. |
To support this claim, here's a post from an expert.
https://www.robbstewart.com/difference-between-trumpet-and-cornet
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9379
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | JWG wrote: | | To correct some misstatements above, Cornets are not more conical than trumpets . . . surveys of hundreds of instruments have put that myth to bed and confirmed that trumpets have a more conical taper due to single wrap designs having a longer bell tail that allows for a more conical design. |
To support this claim, here's a post from an expert.
https://www.robbstewart.com/difference-between-trumpet-and-cornet |
I’d like to see a comparison of this sort with modern instruments. A large percentage of the instruments Robb analyzed are 100 to 150 years old.
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: | | Do the additional bends slow down the air, which is why the tone may be darker? Or is it how conical the tubing and bell are that really makes that difference? |
I think the most important factors that make a cornet tone richer, darker, warmer, or whatever people choose to call it, are the bell flare, the mouthpiece design, and how the instrument is played. A good example of the effects of bell flare and mouthpiece design are flugelhorns. The extreme conical nature of the bell and the deep mouthpieces used on flugelhorns give them that buttery sound. All the other tubing on them is cylindrical. As for bends in cornet tubing, I’m sure there’s some effect, but it probably has to do with redirecting the sound waves. There’s not enough air speed through a cornet for a curve in the tubing to have any significant affect.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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etc-etc
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rhatheway
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Posts: 163
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | rhatheway wrote: | | etc-etc wrote: | The shepherd's crook is a nod/throwback to an earlier style of cornet wrap that used Stölzel piston valves. Stölzel valves, invented in 1800s, had one port at the bottom and two switchable ports on the side. The section of tubing going to the bell from first valve bottom port had to be wrapped 270° around, resembling a shepherd's crook.
Stölzel valves had a bore step at the boundary between the piston / casing and a 90° or 135° turn within the piston, making them much stuffer than the later invented and still currently used Périnet valves.
Other than a "pretty" shape and the ability to collect water "in the dip" the shepherd crook is not contributing much to the sound. Unless, of course, you listen with your eyes. |
Do you know of any visual diagrams of this (the Stölzel piston valves and switchable ports)? Conceptually I understand what you describe, but seeing a diagram or picture would be helpful. |
From https://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/earlval.htm
Stölzel valves
Joseph Anton Rohe Cornopean restored by Robb Stewart:
https://www.robbstewart.com/rohe-cornopean
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Perfect, thank you!
And that cornopean is a really cool looking horn! 
And is that a tuning bit in the mp receiver? If so, what keys did the cornopean tune to?
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9379
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Many of the early bell-forward rotary valve cornets employed a “shepherd’s crook” as an expedient way to route the bell to the desired position while keeping the horn fairly short. Here’s my 1870s Henry Lehnert Bb cornet.
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Dale,
This 1800s cornet looks great!
Would you be able please to post the image of the other side of the instrument to better see how the tubing is routed - thank you! |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | Dale,
This 1800s cornet looks great!
Would you be able please to post the image of the other side of the instrument to better see how the tubing is routed - thank you! |
Thanks! I wish posting photos here wasn’t such a chore. That one should be higher resolution, but the link won’t cooperate. The cornet has Allen valves, which are very small diameter with oval ports. You can see the tubing transition to oval right before entering the valve. Here’s the other side.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 683
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:27 am Post subject: Yamaha 2330 cornet |
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I bought a Yamaha 2330 Shephards crook cornet serial number # 308689. Unable to find serial number online. On the bell is written Yamaha Established in 1887. Made in Japan is written on the 2nd valve casing.
It is not a pretty looking cornet, but it plays well.
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Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
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etc-etc
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Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6196
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | etc-etc wrote: | Dale,
This 1800s cornet looks great!
Would you be able please to post the image of the other side of the instrument to better see how the tubing is routed - thank you! |
Thanks! I wish posting photos here wasn’t such a chore. That one should be higher resolution, but the link won’t cooperate. The cornet has Allen valves, which are very small diameter with oval ports. You can see the tubing transition to oval right before entering the valve. Here’s the other side.
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Thank you!
I see here a grand-grand-father of the leadpipe wrap of Getzen Eterna (and prior to that, King Master) cornets.
The Allen rotary valves have oval / compressed circular cross-section, possibly leading to increased stuffiness of the horn. More details on p.116 in this document:
https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-2003/HBSJ_2003_JL01_004_UtleyKlaus_Part2.pdf |
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stuartissimo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 995
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: What's so special about shepherds crook cornets? |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | I don't believe that true long model cornets are made nowadays, and what is often referred to as a long model cornet, is actually an "American cornet", e.g. a cornet with the wrap of a short model cornet, but no shepherd's crook, and the bell generally extending further. |
Is there an 'official' or common name for the non-short model cornets? I tend to use 'long cornet' or 'American-style cornet' but that gets a bit tedious to always spell out (as opposed to just 'short model cornet' for the brassband variation).
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
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iiipopes
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 555
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:04 am Post subject: Re: What's so special about shepherds crook cornets? |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | I don't believe that true long model cornets are made nowadays, and what is often referred to as a long model cornet, is actually an "American cornet", e.g. a cornet with the wrap of a short model cornet, but no shepherd's crook, and the bell generally extending further. |
Is there an 'official' or common name for the non-short model cornets? I tend to use 'long cornet' or 'American-style cornet' but that gets a bit tedious to always spell out (as opposed to just 'short model cornet' for the brass band variation). |
Straight bell cornet? As in the Bach 181 and others that had been a mainstay of concert bands in prior generations?
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DAVIDTHEWRITER
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024
Posts: 20
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | The shepherd's crook is a nod/throwback to an earlier style of cornet wrap that used Stölzel piston valves. Stölzel valves, invented in 1800s, had one port at the bottom and two switchable ports on the side. The section of tubing going to the bell from first valve bottom port had to be wrapped 270° around, resembling a shepherd's crook.
Stölzel valves had a bore step at the boundary between the piston / casing and a 90° or 135° turn within the piston, making them much stuffer than the later invented and still currently used Périnet valves.
Other than a "pretty" shape and the ability to collect water "in the dip" the shepherd crook is not contributing much to the sound. Unless, of course, you listen with your eyes. |
I'm surprised to read this. |
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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| Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet".
(ever hear this before ?)
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