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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9071 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:26 pm Post subject: Short and a Long cornet mpc. lengths? |
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Does anyone know the difference between a Short and a Long cornet mouthpiece stem? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Cup depth, throat size, backbore.
Overall length is just another factor in balancing out the intonation.
Let's say you have a design with compressed octaves (sharp low register, flat high register) - shortening the length will counteract this, if done the right amount.
So for example...
If you take a normal piece and drill the throat out, you'll get a long throat which will compress octaves - so you'd have to do something to fix it, like running in the backbore tool further, or shortening the shank (and then turning down the shank to fix insertion depth/gap)... Which is basically what Monette does, among others.
If you take, for example, a Denis Wick cornet piece - the cup being so very deep will generally compress octaves (compared with a piece with the sort of cup your typical trumpet piece would have)... The throat is also pretty big and long... So to counteract this, the shank is short.
You could, in theory, put in a bigger backbore for the same effect, but there's a limit to quite how big a backbore can be - once the backbore needs to be so big it won't fit within the shank, it's not an option.
Every mouthpiece is a balancing act to make something that will work for the intended use. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9071 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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I should have asked more specifically, sorry. I just got a Benge L.A. Long Cornet. (I think about 1972.) I notice Yamaha offers both Short Shank and Long Shank mouthpieces. I think all other parameters in the mouthpieces are the same. Would one be more appropriate than the other to use? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 687
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 8:10 pm Post subject: Recommended mouthpieces for long cornet |
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Duplicate _________________ Current cornets and mouthpieces
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Holton 602 cornet 2007?
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:48 am; edited 4 times in total |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1003 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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When I read your post, this article came to mind. Not sure if it’s helpful for your question though.
Have you tried asking Yamaha themselves? _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2662 Location: Anacortes, WA
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 7:38 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I should have asked more specifically, sorry. I just got a Benge L.A. Long Cornet. (I think about 1972.) I notice Yamaha offers both Short Shank and Long Shank mouthpieces. I think all other parameters in the mouthpieces are the same. Would one be more appropriate than the other to use? Thanks. |
Yamaha does do long and short shank pieces, but the other parameters absolutely will not all be the same.
The "E" cup short shanks are all very deep cups, BBB style pieces... That's the bulk of the short shanks.
As far as the rest go...
The same rules of balancing out apply - you can't just take a piece, cut down the length and it play properly without any other factors being changed to balance it out.
So let's take the obvious example... The only mouthpiece Yamaha does in both long and short shank versions - the 11C4.
If the rim, cup and throat size (bore) are the same, then the factors left to balance the intonation out are the backbore profile and throat length.
The short answer is... No - one will not be more appropriate than the other.
Both will work - if you don't want a BBB cup, you'll almost certainly be looking at the longer shanks anyway (the 11C4 being the only exception where you have a choice - the two will feel different, but you won't know which you'd like better without trying them). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9071 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Assuming that you have the cornet in hand and a plethora of mouthpieces, why would you ask? |
I have no L-Shank Cornet mouthpieces to compare it with
TKSop wrote: | If the rim, cup and throat size (bore) are the same (Yamaha 11B4 ed.), then the factors left to balance the intonation out are the backbore profile and throat length.
The short answer is... No - one will not be more appropriate than the other.
Both will work - if you don't want a BBB cup, you'll almost certainly be looking at the longer shanks anyway (the 11C4 being the only exception where you have a choice - the two will feel different, but you won't know which you'd like better without trying them). |
Thank you. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 687
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Recommended mouthpieces for long cornet |
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Delete _________________ Current cornets and mouthpieces
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Holton 602 cornet 2007?
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 556
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:31 am Post subject: |
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OK, to specifically answer the OP's question: since the late '50's, when Conn and King discontinued their proprietary shank length and taper, and since the mid '60's when Olds also discontinued their proprietary shank length and taper, for American cornets almost everybody, both corporate and boutique, use the Bach standard for shank length, taper, and tip diameter for "long shank" cornet mouthpieces.
Everything else, including rims, bowl geometry, throat drill, backbore profile, etc. is up to the individual manufacturer.
For "short shank" cornet mouthpieces, including Wick, Yamaha, etc., there does not seem to be a standard. My Yammy short shank mouthpieces are narrower at the tip than Bach Standard, and my Wick cornet mouthpieces are @5 thou larger at the tip than Bach standard, although they seem to have the same or similar shank taper. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 687
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Recommended mouthpieces for long cornet |
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Deleted _________________ Current cornets and mouthpieces
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Holton 602 cornet 2007?
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Modern short shank mouthpieces are typically “brass band” style with extremely deep cups and very large throats. Those traits will cause a cornet to play a little flat, so shortening the mouthpiece compensates for that and allows the tuning slide to remain at its “normal” position. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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