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Biber
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| trpt.hick wrote: | Yes, today called the tenor clef. The "c" lies on the fourth line of the tenor clef in Bendinelli's and Fantini's table of harmonics for the natural trumpet. Thus, the trumpet they refer to was obviously in F.
Ed Tarr states the same thing. |
FYI - from Tarr's Complete English translation of the Bendinelli (1614) published by the Brass Press:
P. 10-11 "On the very first staff, Bendinelli transmits 'the registers and the notes of the trumpet of the past'. It is remarkable that this chart is in F. Since Praetorius notes that the trumpet 'was lengthened...not too many years ago', so as to be brought into the key of C, the F trumpet must have been the trumpet opf the past (trombetta Antiqua). ... It should be noted that Bendinelli notated the harmonic series an octave too low - an obvious mistake."
Note that Tarr is discussing KEY not CLEF, and he is interpreting musical notation, so interpretation of the the term chiavette is not involved, which could be construed contextually as either clef or key.
Similarly, there is nothing in the music of the Fantini other than notating the harmonic series in C in different clefs so as to avoid excessive ledger lines, which was standard practice. Will check text translations and report back if necessary
Is there another Tarr reference to this topic that I have overlooked?
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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In Tarr's same translation, he states that Bendinelli's pretzel-shaped trumpet is pitched in F. This instrument was commissioned by the council of Bendinelli's church. It was made by a leading maker, Anton Schnitzer.
Do you think it was a fluke that this instrument was pitched in F? |
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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- withdrawn - simply not worth the time or effort.
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Changed my mind - this is so rediculous that it really bothers me.
It really is irrelevant what key HIS trumpet was pitched in (I believe Tarr says slightly above E - but I'll concede F for the sake of argument) Tarr also says that it could very well have been considered to have been in Eb or D of his day-
What I have taken issue with is your insistence that the clef that the harmonic series appears in determines the pitch of the trumpet being referred to :
| trpt.hick wrote: | | F trumpets were very common during the Baroque. They were the standard military instruments. The methods of Bendinelli (1618) and Fantini (1638) provide the natural harmonic series pitches in the F clef. |
So if he notates a harmonic series in the key of A but writes it in F clef it still refers to an F trumpet??!!!! had you said KEY of F then fine, but you said CLEF and have been quite insistent.
| trpt.hick wrote: | Yes, today called the tenor clef. The "c" lies on the fourth line of the tenor clef in Bendinelli's and Fantini's table of harmonics for the natural trumpet. Thus, the trumpet they refer to was obviously in F.
Ed Tarr states the same thing. |
I have Fantini right in front of me - he notates (and specifically spells out) a C harmonic series notated with the following clefs: F4, C4, C3, G2 and G1 (he returns to G2 for the last 5 notes). It is interesting he leaves out the Bb seventh partial. Historical notational convention accounts for the fact that different clefs were generally used to avoid excessive ledger lines. NOWHERE does Fantini indicate a C on the fourth line in an F4 clef.
By the way I've found no reference by Tarr in his Fantini translation to an F trumpet.
I dare say you are simply mistaking C clefs for F clefs. Which is understandable for someone not versed in reading period notation.
This is very dissapointing.
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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B.
It has been interesting to converse with you. I can tell that you are getting quite upset, so maybe it is time to end this little debate.
Notating for trumpet in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries is sort of like how people notate for the modern tuba. Written pitches are in "C" but the actual tuba used can be in various keys. In the case of Bendinelli, confirmed by Tarr's commentary, the range of the instrument is notated in F. Also, Bendinelli's famous trumpet is in F (according to Tarr, who played on it). Maybe this has no significance at all, but it is also possible that Bendinelli wrote the first trumpet method for the common military instrument of the time. After all, he includes many military calls as part of the method. (So does Fantini.)
We could argue forever about this. Personally, it doesn't really matter to me what key of trumpet was common or uncommon in the Italian military back then. I only stated my opinion based on what seems clear (at least to me) from Bendinelli himself. I also agree that the book is difficult to understand at times, especially when translated into English. Even Tarr says the notation in F is somewhat unusual. So, the mystery remains!
your friend,
Dave |
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Very well, we can leave it at that since you do not wish to address the specific points I raised.
F clef = F trumpet, Utterly fantastic...
All the best
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| I can only assume that your sarcasm is directed at me AND Ed Tarr, since he also states that Bendinelli's range chart is written for the F trumpet. |
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| trpt.hick wrote: | | Bendinelli's range chart is written for the F trumpet. |
Of course it does, as it notates a harmonic series in the key of F. I never denied that, nor am I the one confusing CLEF with KEY.
Enough already! |
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Craig Swartz
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Mahler's "back and forth" between Bb and F trumpet: Could it have been something so simple as an attempt to keep most of the notes on the staff? Though we have done the majority of Mahler symphonies in years past, I gave it little thought until we performed 6 last season. It was the only reasoning I could come up with. |
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Check out the Birkemeier (sorry if I mangled the name). It really gives perspective on that transitional period from F trumpet to the Bb. I do believe he specifically discusses Mahler symphonies.
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brassbow
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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I want to thank every one that posted here. I know I now have a new perspective.
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s11141827
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:46 pm Post subject: Natural trumpet "myth" |
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If you were stretch the Tubing of a Modern F Trumpet & then do the same thing w/ a F Natural trumpet, you'd notice right away that the Natural Trumpet is twice as long as the Modern F Trumpet so it's an Octave down.
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huntman10
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Natural trumpet "myth" |
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| s11141827 wrote: | | If you were stretch the Tubing of a Modern F Trumpet & then do the same thing w/ a F Natural trumpet, you'd notice right away that the Natural Trumpet is twice as long as the Modern F Trumpet so it's an Octave down. |
And?????? True, the fundamental frequency is an octave lower, basic science, but it is built to play in the upper partials, in the clarino range, so that it can play an almost complete "scale" given a few quirks of the natural scale pattern. And that annoying flat 7th harmonic....
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
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s11141827
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Natural trumpet "myth" |
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| huntman10 wrote: | | s11141827 wrote: | | If you were stretch the Tubing of a Modern F Trumpet & then do the same thing w/ a F Natural trumpet, you'd notice right away that the Natural Trumpet is twice as long as the Modern F Trumpet so it's an Octave down. |
And?????? True, the fundamental frequency is an octave lower, basic science, but it is built to play in the upper partials, in the clarino range, so that it can play an almost complete "scale" given a few quirks of the natural scale pattern. And that annoying flat 7th harmonic.... |
If you add Venting holes to it, that problem is fixed.
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