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mike ansberry
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 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:44 am Post subject: Olds L12 leadpipe venturi |
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I have been playing my L12 since the late 1970s. I love the horn, but I noticed that last time I cleaned it that the leadpipe has no taper at all. I am talking about the inner pipe that the mouthpiece fits into. Do flugels not have a tapered lead pipe, generally speaking?
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Goby
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Most flugels do not have a tapered leadpipe. There are obviously exceptions, but most traditional designs have a straight tube for a leadpipe. |
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nieuwguyski
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yourbrass
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Olds L12 leadpipe venturi |
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| mike ansberry wrote: | | I have been playing my L12 since the late 1970s. I love the horn, but I noticed that last time I cleaned it that the leadpipe has no taper at all. I am talking about the inner pipe that the mouthpiece fits into. Do flugels not have a tapered lead pipe, generally speaking? |
Yes, that's the French design.
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I bought one of Charlie Melk’s leadpipes for my L-12 years ago, and it was an improvement over the stock one.
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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Location: WI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | I bought one of Charlie Melk’s leadpipes for my L-12 years ago, and it was an improvement over the stock one. |
+1
I've got them for my Couesnon, my Noblet, my Reynolds Emperor (L-12 clone), and my Olds Clark Terry flugels.
In reviewing all the posts on this thread, I feel I must point out that it is important to clarify whether we are talking about the taper of the mouthpiece receiver or the internal taper of the long tube attached to the receiver that actually enables tuning via the bit.
Charlie's leadpipe has a Morse taper (that is, "tapered") receiver, but (basically) a "straight" tube.
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nieuwguyski
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | In reviewing all the posts on this thread, I feel I must point out that it is important to clarify whether we are talking about the taper of the mouthpiece receiver or the internal taper of the long tube attached to the receiver that actually enables tuning via the bit.
Charlie's leadpipe has a Morse taper (that is, "tapered") receiver, but (basically) a "straight" tube. |
That's very interesting. Charlie claims his pipe offers noticeable advantages over original Couesnon, Olds, Blessing, and Bach pipes, which have both straight (Couesnon) and tapered (Olds, Blessing, and Bach) mouthpiece receivers. I always assumed the pipe itself must be tapered, but I guess the secret sauce lies somewhere else.
I'm not being dismissive: I plan on buying a Melk leadpipe for my early Olds L12 flugel after I have the leadpipe receiver cut down to bring the horn up to pitch. The original leadpipe takes a cornet mouthpiece and I had Kanstul make a French-receiver leadpipe for the horn years ago, but it would be nice to be able to use a "normal" flugel piece in the horn.
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Halflip
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Location: WI
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| nieuwguyski wrote: | | I always assumed the pipe itself must be tapered, but I guess the secret sauce lies somewhere else. |
Actually, the "secret sauce" lies partly in the fact that Charlie's pipe is straighter than the Couesnon. As I understand it (and I could be mangling things a bit), the Couesnon pipe taper makes it extremely sensitive to mouthpiece specs (by specs, I mean cup shapes, throat sizes, and backbores) when it comes to playing in tune, while a straight flugel pipe allows better intonation across a wider variety of mouthpiece specs. (This assumes that a mouthpiece with the correct shank is being used in both cases.)
Regardless of my understanding, I recently emailed Charlie to get a clarification on how his leadpipe differs from the stock Couesnon pipe in terms of tube taper. His answer was as follows:
"There are considerable differences in the front part on the original Couesnon leadpipe to mine.
To answer it simply, mine is mostly a straight taper tube. No taper."
Charlie's leadpipes definitely do offer noticeable advantages over the original pipes for which he offers replacements. If you get one for your L-12, I'm sure you will like it (be sure to inform Charlie of the fact that you had your leadpipe receiver cut down).
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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yourbrass
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the French design is a straight (cylindrical) tube that a French shank mouthpiece fits into. In that design, the taper is provided by the mouthpiece backbore, which is generally longer than a Morse taper flugel mouthpiece.
It's really critical to have this right, whatever system you use, cause the horn just won't play right otherwise.
I also advocate a longer leadpipe, or tube, for the horn. I have one I made about 40 years ago for my Courtois. It doesn't push all the way in, it's so long. Pitch stability is one of the benefits of this.
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
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Halflip
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Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: | | Yes, the French design is a straight (cylindrical) tube that a French shank mouthpiece fits into. In that design, the taper is provided by the mouthpiece backbore, which is generally longer than a Morse taper flugel mouthpiece. |
Well, Charlie's design is a "mostly" straight tube that a Morse taper mouthpiece fits into, so he must have done something ingenious with the front part of his leadpipe (the part he says differs considerably from the stock Couesnon) to get a superior result with that setup.
I think we are all in agreement with respect to the points we are making, taking into consideration the design differences we are discussing.
| yourbrass wrote: | | It's really critical to have this right, whatever system you use, cause the horn just won't play right otherwise. |
Absolutely agree!
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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TrumpetMD
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2417
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | Charlie's leadpipes definitely do offer noticeable advantages over the original pipes for which he offers replacements. If you get one for your L-12, I'm sure you will like it (be sure to inform Charlie of the fact that you had your leadpipe receiver cut down). |
Maybe someone could post a before-and-after video demonstrating the original L-12 leadpipe with the Charlie Melk leadpipe.
Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Halflip
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Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: | | Maybe someone could post a before-and-after video demonstrating the original L-12 leadpipe with the Charlie Melk leadpipe. |
How about you? If you are an MD, I'm sure you could afford to 'buy and try'. You could lend a reliable level of objectivity (as well as an aspect of first-hand discovery) to the comparison.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: |
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I’m not posting a video, but I found the improvements to my Olds L-12 when using the Melk pipe to be incremental. It plays in tune a little better and the tone is a little more pleasing to my ears. Nothing monumental, but still worth what I paid for the pipe years ago.
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TrumpetMD
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | TrumpetMD wrote: | | Maybe someone could post a before-and-after video demonstrating the original L-12 leadpipe with the Charlie Melk leadpipe. |
How about you? If you are an MD, I'm sure you could afford to 'buy and try'. You could lend a reliable level of objectivity (as well as an aspect of first-hand discovery) to the comparison. |
I guess I triggered Halflip, who figured out that I literally sleep on a big pile of money that I receive regularly from Big Pharma. 
Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1936
Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: | | I guess I triggered Halflip, who figured out that I literally sleep on a big pile of money that I receive regularly from Big Pharma. |
Not at all. Are you implying that you couldn't afford to buy a Melk leadpipe? I think they probably go for around $250-$275 now.
When I was growing up, my family doctor bought a new bright red Cadillac every year, and always had a large silver hood ornament in the shape of a horse custom installed (in honor of his stable of thoroughbreds). That was a long time ago; perhaps these days doctors are not so affluent. My apologies if I made a false assumption. I certainly made no assumptions regarding you and "Big Pharma" (and it's a bit rash of you to suggest otherwise, even in jest).
As Dale Proctor pointed out, the improvements imparted by the Melk flugelhorn leadpipe are incremental but worthwhile; a video may not be the most telling way to understand the benefits.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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