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lain.fishu New Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2023 Posts: 2
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Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 7:28 pm Post subject: Lead mouthpiece downsides ? |
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Other than tone in the lower range, are there any downsides I should know about using a lead mouthpiece for pep/ marching band? I normally use a Bach 3c, and will be using a Yamaha 13a4a for a brighter sound and a little push in the upper range. _________________ Elijah
Yamaha 4335GSII
MP:Vincent Bach 3c
Yamaha 13a4a
Conn 6A Cornet
MP: Mt Vernon 7c |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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The internal volume of the cup will change more as your lips swell from intense playing. In a 3C mouthpiece, this change is a small fraction of the total cup volume, but with a shallow lead mouthpiece, your lips may swell to the point of touching the bottom of the mouthpiece cup and not being able to produce any sound.
Your articulation and accuracy may also suffer, as the higher compression from the mouthpiece can change the amount of effort required to play certain notes and make the shelves where notes sit more fragile.
Lastly, your range will *probably* not improve much compared to your regular mouthpiece. Playing into the upper register is all about technique and form, and the limiting factor for most players is their ability to create the right type of air compression through the embouchure rather than mouthpiece or trumpet bore size.
That being said, every professional lead trumpet player uses a shallow mouthpiece, so learning how to handle a shallow mouthpiece is a valuable skill. Make sure to lean into the bright sound of a shallow mouthpiece, and try to let the equipment do the work for you. |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 172 Location: Spain
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Hello, my usual mouthpiece is the Yamaha 11b4. I also have the 11c4-7c and since recently the 11a4.
Between the 11b4 and the 11a4 there are only subtle differences. I think the 11a4 is not a shallow enough mouthpiece to be considered a lead mouthpiece. Yamaha Booby Shew Lead, Allen Vizzutti or Eric Mishasiro would be authentic lead mouthpieces.
There is a slightly different timbre on the Yamaha 11a4, but little else. The low notes are still there, curiously they disappear with the yamaha 11c4, something about that mouthpiece just doesn't work for me.
So if you come from a Bach 3C it seems to me a good decision to move to a Yamaha 13a4, to look for that slightly brighter sound, when you adapt and feel that you still want more, if that day comes, you can look for more shallow pieces. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1844 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:35 am Post subject: |
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I find the intonation gets wonky when I have tried any of the "a" backbores. That would be my only word of caution, spend some time with a tuner to get used to the intonation differences between the 3C and a 13A4a. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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gord-o Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 280 Location: Sioux Falls, SD
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Another downside with a lead piece is the intonation. Notes that already tend to be sharp (top line F, A above that) will probably be sharper than with the 3c. You may have to pull your tuning slide out further than with the 3c. Practice with the lead piece holding out long notes for as long as comfortable while using a tuner. I'm not talking about just playing high notes here, I mean play the long tones with a tuner on low notes also. Find the pitch center of each note. This approach helped me to adjust to a lead piece and to re-acclimate if I haven't played the lead piece in a while. _________________ Richard Hastings
Brass and Stringed Instrument Repair,
Popplers Music |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2342 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:18 am Post subject: |
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+All the things that are mentioned - thinner tone, pitch issues, physical issues with a shallow cup, then add (in marching band) the temptation of over-blow or "fill up the space" which will accentuate all of theses things.
A bigger tone, that has more colors/overtones, easier to tune IMO is preferred for marching band. Bach 3C, or Yamaha 14B4 are solid choices.
Remember a Bach 3C is one of the more shallow "C" cups in the lineup... a good all-around sound.
I am not a fan of the xxa4 or xxa4a mouthpieces - these pieces have a very specific use, I feel overused by the masses. Really a piece for the extreme high end - and there aren't that many of us that live there. Far more applicable is a xXB4 Yamaha. Yamaha rims are differently shaped between the cup depths - i.e a 14B4 rim is different than a 14C4 rim. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Marching band or any band that plays either outside or in very large venues requires a setup that can get you a loud sound. Restrictive mouthpieces just don't work. Drum and bugle corps use open mouthpieces to allow for a lot more air and sound. If I were you, that's the direction I would go. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:03 am Post subject: |
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zaferis has spent a career playing in marching and ceremonial units (as well as balancing that out with "indoor" ensembles of various sorts). I would listen to him. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 987
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Some “Potential” downsides can be avoided.
- Too sharp up high can sometimes mean too much mpc pressure and/or improper use of embouchure and overuse of facial muscles.
Tone & or low notes - go down incrementally in size as you get used to them then stop downsizing when you get to a point where its bad. Low notes are not speaking, articulation will never happen etc.
Smaller can be 2 sizes inner diameter & cup depth.
Don’t just focus on shallow.
Cup shape - convex or concave may be a better alternative than typical cup so that can be a potential downside to avoid.
Overblowing is by far the top downside in “technique” (for me) to avoid. How little work can you do and get a full tone…?
Sticking out…. (In a good way) sax players use a metal mpc to increase volume sometimes. A lead piece can amplify volumes that you may not be used to. You may stick out. However, if you are consistent it may be appropriate and people can come up to your level. (If this causes inhibition or fear that could be a downside but a lead piece can let you hang out in the wind)
Good luck and have fun. |
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