View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:00 pm Post subject: I.S.O. sweet sounding, "parlor" CORNET. |
|
|
I love Cornets!
Probably, have a couple dozen (many years accumulation).
However; I really want a "parlor Cornet".
A sweet sounding horn that produces a somewhat lyrical tonality, and can retain that tonality at a relative whisper volume.
I don't need to "blend with a section". Mainly, performing solo work ... duet with organ, woodwinds.
So far, I can get in the ballpark with a pre-War F. Besson (Paris) Bb cornet, a 1930s York Airflow cornet, and an early 20th Century Boston Ne Plus Ultra 3-Star Cornet in C.
I like the way I can get close to this with a few Trumpets, also: a pre-War Couesnon Bb, a 1940s Couesnon C-Trumpet, and an early 1950s DesLaurier C Trumpet.
But, I prefer a Cornet. Think Chet Baker on Cornet.
I do not have any Cornets of French manufacture, aside from the F. Besson ... but, I am thinking a Cornet of this ilk is going to provide what I am seeking.
A Selmer Cornet??
Any suggestions ? _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1861 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Early 50's Roth shepherds' crook, Martin Indiana small bore - probably 50's - not the large bore Blessing version from the 60's. Benge 8Z shepherd's crook - even the UMI version. A Benge trumpet with the correct mouthpiece.
I would lean toward Benge - easier to find.
The mouthpiece will contribute a good deal to the sound and articulation you define as "sweet". Consider Stork's standard C cup (not the Traditional cup), the plain Bach 6 and some Bach B cups and perhaps Curry's VC or TC models. You are not after an overly deep cup. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2353 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
|
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've owned two Selmer K-Modified cornets -- one .468" bore and one .457". Based on my experience, I don't think they're what you're looking for.
A horn you might want to seek out is a 1920's Conn 10A " Wonder Vocal" cornet. Here's a quote from a Conn catalog of the era, sourced from the excellent Conn Loyalist website:
"What Conn said in 1927:
The Wonder Vocal cornet is the most practical C, Bb and A cornet ever built, not alone because of its ease of adjustment from C to Bb and A but also for its easy blowing qualities and rich vocal tone when played in C. It is especially suited for choral and home use, as it plays from piano and song scores without transposition. When in Bb or A the Wonder Vocal cornet is a fine cornet for work in bands and orchestras."
The mention of it's suitability for home use is a giveaway: it truly was meant to be a parlor cornet. The surprising thing is that it (or at least mine) plays pretty much just as well in Bb as it does in C. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
|
Back to top |
|
|
krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 685 Location: Hofors, Sweden
|
Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A Couturier conical bore cornet? I sold mine half a year ago, but that was the most lyrical cornet (brass instrument) I've played, especially when paired with a period, deep mouthpiece.
I had a French GautiƩ cornet from the late 19th century once, that one was also something similar, but with some more bite, to the tone, a rather heavy thing.
100 years plus, that's the age I think about when reading your description. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2667 Location: Anacortes, WA
|
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
First off, you have to go old, really old. Make sure it is a shepherd's crook style. Then play it with a mouthpiece from the same period. No, you can't use a modern mouthpiece that tries to replicate vintage sound. It just won't work.
For instance, if I play my 1903 Conn "The Wonder" cornet with a tiny but deep unmarked mouthpiece from the late 1800's, the sound is deep, dark and wonderfully quiet. Perfect for parlor playing.
Part of this is the super small bore size of the cornet. The other part is the mouthpiece properly fitting the old cornet. Insertion depth is part of it. But also the design is just not found in modern mouthpieces.
[img]CIMG2764 by genevie7, on Flickr[/img] _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: 1947 Cleveland Clevelander
1943 Conn 80A Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
I believe you are onto something, there, Lads !
I have kept some old, vintage cornet (and trumpet) mouthpieces. Didn't they call them "cookie-cutters" ?
I have used them ... but, just experimentally ...on newer horns.
I shall try them on my old Boston 3-Star, and my vintage (pre-War) Besson.
My vintage York AirFlow cornet has the original case and mouthpiece, but it seems to be somewhat different than those "cookie-cutters", like my Conn Wonder, Henry Diston Mfg, Couesnon (Paris) mouthpieces.
Thanks for the tips ! _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz
Last edited by Man Of Constant Sorrow on Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bunny Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 230
|
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Selmer cornets usually seen in this country are American style long model cornets- extremely fine instruments but not a "parlor" sound. To me the French Besson cornets and the Boston cornets mentioned both give a lyrical sound- and as others here have said the older (100 year plus) horns mostly have a sound that is more delicate and doesn't like to be pushed. I have Courtois cornets from an 1870s Levy model to a 1990s Arban model that all share this quality to a greater or lesser extent. So this maker's concept of cornet sound changed less than most, at least in some models. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 7:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
I really appreciate ALL the above comments and suggestions.
Means a lot to me!
Has me thinking .... _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
UPDATE ~
I seem to be having some success in my quest.
Rather than buy something (such as suggested here by helpful posters), I am focusing on a couple horns I already have:
A Boston 3-Star (currently configured as a C-pitched Cornet)
A pre-War Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire Bb Cornet.
As suggested by a few above TH posters, I am using a few different (period) vintage deep-V "cookie-cutter" mouthpieces.
There is an acclimation period on-going. I am pleased. _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3833 Location: Greece
|
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 4:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have a 1948 Selmer short model and a 1883 French Besson Brevette short model that have the sound concept you describe , both great sounding cornets .
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/Xa27eajsgLYZo5CJ/
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/wePuGraxx7L6CMtQ/
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 and 800 LB cornets
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1968 Location: WI
|
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
giakara, your links take me to a private cornet group on Facebook which I must apparently join in order to see your pictures. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Same, here.
I cannot, will not join Facebook, under ANY circumstances.
"I pity the fool!" - - (Mr. T character from "The A-Team") _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:40 am Post subject: Re: I.S.O. sweet sounding, "parlor" CORNET. |
|
|
So at the start of this thread I saw this, and thought, this will be interesting.
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | However; I really want a "parlor Cornet".
|
But after all of these posts, I have yet to see a parlor cornet. Everything from Arbuckle-derived to American Long cornets, but not a single parlor.
For those who apparently do not know, this is a parlor cornet:
Notice how it is vastly different from the Conn Solo Wonder cornet shown previously. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
And since this forum is having another of its nothing-works days and no-longer allows more than one image embed per post, here separately is a very rare Martin Parlor Eb, very likely made by Henry Distin, and made co-incident with both Distin and financial backer August Pollmann leaving the Martin Brothers, who failed 7 years later.
_________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3833 Location: Greece
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | Same, here.
I cannot, will not join Facebook, under ANY circumstances.
"I pity the fool!" - - (Mr. T character from "The A-Team") |
Sorry but is impossible to upload piccs here , i have try many times in the past but i can make it ...
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 and 800 LB cornets
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: I.S.O. sweet sounding, "parlor" CORNET. |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph wrote: | So at the start of this thread I saw this, and thought, this will be interesting.
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | However; I really want a "parlor Cornet".
|
But after all of these posts, I have yet to see a parlor cornet. Everything from Arbuckle-derived to American Long cornets, but not a single parlor.
For those who apparently do not know, this is a parlor cornet:
Notice how it is vastly different from the Conn Solo Wonder cornet shown previously. |
YES !
I have (years previous ) seen similar photo-images, but could not find.
Is what to I was alluding.
Thank you. _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: I.S.O. sweet sounding, "parlor" CORNET. |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | So at the start of this thread I saw this, and thought, this will be interesting.
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | However; I really want a "parlor Cornet".
|
But after all of these posts, I have yet to see a parlor cornet. Everything from Arbuckle-derived to American Long cornets, but not a single parlor.
For those who apparently do not know, this is a parlor cornet:
Notice how it is vastly different from the Conn Solo Wonder cornet shown previously. |
YES !
I have (years previous ) seen similar photo-images, but could not find.
Is what to I was alluding.
Thank you. |
While "Parlor Cornet" is the proper term, the vastly more common term is "Pocket Cornet". If you search that instead, watching out for trumpets - which is what most compact examples are today - you should find ample.
Here is a reference site: https://www.pocketcornets.com/index.html
And from that site, a 1971 Holton pictured: _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Aside from the physical compactness, is there not a defined category of brass instruments aptly named, "Parlor Horns" ? Somewhat applied to instruments that are not played LOUDLY.
A sub-set of "Chamber Instruments"?
I know (from experience) there is a category of acoustic guitars, known as "Parlor Guitars". They have smaller bodies than what most consider "standard".
The Martin Co. (world-famous guitar manufacturer in Nazareth, Pennsylvania ... totally unrelated to the Martin brass instrument company) may actually have (?) gestated the genre. _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2667 Location: Anacortes, WA
|
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you take a shepherd's crook cornet, with a super small bore, AKA something like my Conn "The Wonder," you have a cornet that can play super softly. Yet is has a beautiful, full sound. Contrast this with playing a regular cornet softly, playing the Wonder is like playing a regular cornet at normal dynamics. I think the key to all of this is the bore size. I can't find the source, but I seem to remember it being in the .413 range. Couple it with a period, very deep mouthpiece and it would seem to be appropriate playing in a parlor. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: 1947 Cleveland Clevelander
1943 Conn 80A Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
|
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2024 2:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | Aside from the physical compactness, is there not a defined category of brass instruments aptly named, "Parlor Horns" ? Somewhat applied to instruments that are not played LOUDLY.
A sub-set of "Chamber Instruments"?
I know (from experience) there is a category of acoustic guitars, known as "Parlor Guitars". They have smaller bodies than what most consider "standard".
The Martin Co. (world-famous guitar manufacturer in Nazareth, Pennsylvania ... totally unrelated to the Martin brass instrument company) may actually have (?) gestated the genre. |
That guess about CF Martin could be a good one. They began in 1833, and sometime between 1667 & 1872 GR Martin tried to trick people into thinking his rebranded Slater guitars were the same thing, so their brand must have been widely known by then.
The company that used the term "parlor cornet" the most was CG Conn - which is ironic since the horn Conn kept in his own parlor, it is back in the mansion with the current owners today, was/is a full-size Conn Ultimatum (made around 1879, 4 years before the first of the "Wonder" line of instruments). The Wonder Parlor Cornet model appears to have come about in the mid-1880s. So taking a cue from CF Martin would certainly be chronologically possible.
However, there were also a number of other firms using the term - most that I have seen being French in their English language advertising. But again, this is slightly before and contemporary to Conn, so the Martin influence is possible.
What makes the difference is not the bore size - though the relative mass of metal to mass of vibrating air column will have some effect. What is most unique about these tiny cornets, and what gives them their characteristics, is the wrap. The bell of a Conn Wonder Solo cornet sees the bulk of its conical expansion after the crook - which is true of the vast majority of cornets and trumpets. But a compact horn has to place that expansion in the crook - even more so than a keyed bugle or flugel (so it is no surprise that the tone has some similarity despite a tiny bore).
In addition, there are almost no straight segments of tubing. This keeps flow turbulent throughout the length of the bore. A regular horn has multiple transitions between laminar & turbulent flow, each of which saps energy. While turbulent flow does to an extent, it is the transitions that really take a toll, requiring more to make the horn speak, and being perceived as "resistance". So a pocket horn is easier to play soft.
The last unique aspect is not consistent. Compact horns may have more acoustic couplings, or they may not if built carefully. This impacts the interferences that filter/amplify frequencies. (Think of it as more or fewer braces). But this is up to the builder. Some of these compact horns are still remarkably minimal in the couplings.
But if you are looking for the sound & feel, take into account these characteristics that underlie those traits, and you may find some or all of what you seek in more modern alternatives (though a fast taper in the bell crook will be hard to find). _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|