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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:09 pm Post subject: Trumpet and Brass playing injuries |
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Hi, I’m doing some research on brass playing injuries, yes, I’ve had some during my playing career. What I’m looking for is the injuries that occur often to brass players, avoidance strategies, etc. I’m finding things in journals, but I’m also looking for books, text books, periodicals, etc. I’m looking at the whole picture, head to toe.
Thanks, Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
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Chris OHara Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 169 Location: Chicago, IL
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, I’ll do that.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget repetitive use injuries. This would include carpal tunnel, trigger finger, and back injuries from the sedate lifestyle of a working musician.
I personally have had carpal surgeries on both wrists (one month apart, too), and five trigger finger surgeries. And I've got two more of those coming up around the end of the year.
The good news from my orthopedic doctor is just because you get trigger finger surgery one time on a specific joint does not mean trigger finger will not ever come back to that joint. There is always that possibility.
Also, every joint in your fingers can develop trigger. You can do the math on that to figure out how many.
And our sedate work lifestyle can cause back issues and can factor in on obesity,
So it ain't just cold sores & split lips! _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=147567&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Tim, I’ll look into this.
BTW, I put the pixie mute I got from you to good use last night. I play in the ECU Symphonic Wind Ensemble. We played Slave last night at Duke University, I played the first solo with the pixie. The rest of the solos I did on a Harmon. I haven’t got to trying to duplicate the mute in wood yet. Will try after I finish this degree, one more semester to go.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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poketrum Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2023 Posts: 160
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Ulnar nerve entrapment at the wrist or elbow. Another fun one (or two - I have both). |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: |
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I’m also looking at dystopia. Is it neurological, a catching up of bad playing habits on the chops, either or a combination there of? I can find journals, but nothing particularly on trumpet playing. _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:09 am Post subject: |
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falado wrote: | I’m also looking at dystopia. |
Do you mean "dystonia"? If trumpst playing can bring on a dystopia, well, heaven help us all! (Take your pick -- "1984", "Brave New World", "The Handmaid's Tale" . . . )
Perhaps a spellchecking function applied an unwanted change to your post. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, darn auto spell doesn’t recognize dystonia. I was talking with a trumpet teacher who has been teaching for years. He has a theory that focal dystonia may not only be neurological but maybe can be induced from years of playing incorrectly. Look at carpal tunnel brought on by years of repetitive motion, etc. Can similar issues happen with facial muscles?
Also, I was diagnosed with an acoustic neuroma 2 years ago. I was playing while looking in the mirror and noticed I had a dimple forming where I never had one. I also experienced a drop in endurance even though I was playing more. I looked up the symptoms and found that the tumor not only presses against the auditory nerve and balance, but also can affect the facial muscle. nerves. I’m happy to say that after radiation therapy the tumor is shrinking and playing is getting better.
Hey, I’m not stating fact, just researching. I don’t have dystonia, but do know of two horn players who have. It took many months of recovery to play again.
You forgot Atlas Shrugged.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 187 Location: Spain
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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If you try to make a list, I think you should include hearing injuries: hearing loss and tinnitus. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yes, I got tinnitus a few years ago and my ENT just treated it as such only to find out a few years later I have an acoustic neuroma, brain tumor and it benign, forming. Had he done a CT scan earlier we might have caught it when it was operable.
I got tinnitus shortly after starting to use in ear monitors. One day the sound guy turned my monitor on and the volume was all the way up. I ripped them out of my ears and the tinnitus started, was noticeable, that day. It’s been screaming in my left ear since. Nothing was done until a couple years ago what I experienced a drastic hearing loss in my left ear. That’s when he did the CT scan and I got the bad news. My left ear will be deaf within a few years. As it is hearing is muffled, like in a box or under water, and I lost a great amount of word recognition. Last night while playing Slave it was so loud at times where my left ear fuzzed out and I had some slight pain. This happens only occasionally when percussion and low brass are very loud, fff. I bring an ear plug, just didn’t get it in. _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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falado wrote: | You forgot Atlas Shrugged. |
That was in the " . . . " _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 729 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Denver Dill wrote a book, "Still Playing, My Journey Through Embouchure Surgery and Rehabilitation." I have a copy of it and wrote up a short review of it (https://wilktone.com/?p=3486), but I see the links where I bought the book are broken now. I think he still plays in the West Point band, so you could probably reach out to him there and see if the book is still in print.
The University of Illinois has made Dr. Solomon's dissertation available here:
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/items/127500
Quote: | He has a theory that focal dystonia may not only be neurological but maybe can be induced from years of playing incorrectly. |
Yes, pretty much every player I've seen who has a breakdown in playing consistent with what gets called "embouchure dystonia" is switching between two different embouchure types. I think of it like lifting heavy objects with your back, you can get away with it for a while, but it can break down eventually. _________________ wilktone.com |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Wilktone wrote: | Denver Dill wrote a book, "Still Playing, My Journey Through Embouchure Surgery and Rehabilitation." I have a copy of it and wrote up a short review of it (https://wilktone.com/?p=3486), but I see the links where I bought the book are broken now. I think he still plays in the West Point band, so you could probably reach out to him there and see if the book is still in print.
The University of Illinois has made Dr. Solomon's dissertation available here:
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/items/127500
This is great and what I’m looking for. I emailed Dr. Solomon, but haven’t heard from her yet.
Thanks, Dave
Quote: | He has a theory that focal dystonia may not only be neurological but maybe can be induced from years of playing incorrectly. |
Yes, pretty much every player I've seen who has a breakdown in playing consistent with what gets called "embouchure dystonia" is switching between two different embouchure types. I think of it like lifting heavy objects with your back, you can get away with it for a while, but it can break down eventually. |
_________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1191 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Accidental double post, trying to delete this one but it looks like "delete" is not an option.
Last edited by Doug Elliott on Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:45 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1191 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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I totally agree with that. I have seen and worked with dozens of players who were diagnosed with "focal dystonia" - some I had noticed before they started having problems, others came to me after, and some came to me after going through other treatments.
In every case there have been multiple placements, multiple embouchure types, and/or shifting that I consider to be the actual cause of the problem. You can't do weird stuff that is inconsistent and unrepeatable forever without running into serious problems eventually.
Musicians are great at "the show must go on," and hiding their problems, at any cost. Unfortunately it eventually catches up. |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1839 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Doug Elliott wrote: | I totally agree with that. I have seen and worked with dozens of players who were diagnosed with "focal dystonia" - some I had noticed before they started having problems, others came to me after, and some came to me after going through other treatments.
In every case there have been multiple placements, multiple embouchure types, and/or shifting that I consider to be the actual cause of the problem. You can't do weird stuff that is inconsistent and unrepeatable forever without running into serious problems eventually.
Musicians are great at "the show must go on," and hiding their problems, at any cost. Unfortunately it eventually catches up. |
This was certainly true for me. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 946 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Doug and BTW, the lesson we did really helped. I haven’t had that issue since and moving ahead on my playing. I’ll contact you again soon. I’ve been extremely busy. I’m hating research papers.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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