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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:00 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | That's assuming that the Leadpipe used for the exercise is attached to a standard trumpet. If the player is exercising on a detached Leadpipe, it's, perhaps, slightly different in length and so will be the "core" pitch.
Not intending to nit-pick, just to clarify my use of te word approximately . |
I have several lead pipes of varying lengths. They produce pitches depending on their length. If I'm blowing correctly there is nothing approximate about it. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9098 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | I have several lead pipes of varying lengths. They produce pitches depending on their length. If I'm blowing correctly there is nothing approximate about it. |
The word approximate deals with the pitch Eb. When you play leadpipes of different lengths/pitches, you are not playing Eb but going for the core sound. But you already know that. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of times during my lessons Mr Adam chose a different lead pipe off the shelf after we blew the first notes. He wanted to find one that more closely matched my pitch. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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hose wrote: | A couple of times during my lessons Mr Adam chose a different lead pipe off the shelf after we blew the first notes. He wanted to find one that more closely matched my pitch. :-? |
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Was that because you had a certain pitch in mind (perhaps a form of 'perfect pitch') and you had trouble adjusting to the 'out of tune' note that occurred with the leadpipe on your trumpet?
If the goal of 'leadpipe playing' is the development of a nice resonant sound, it makes sense to use a leadpipe that produces a pitch that does not upset/annoy the player. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | hose wrote: | A couple of times during my lessons Mr Adam chose a different lead pipe off the shelf after we blew the first notes. He wanted to find one that more closely matched my pitch. |
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Was that because you had a certain pitch in mind (perhaps a form of 'perfect pitch') and you had trouble adjusting to the 'out of tune' note that occurred with the leadpipe on your trumpet?
If the goal of 'leadpipe playing' is the development of a nice resonant sound, it makes sense to use a leadpipe that produces a pitch that does not upset/annoy the player. |
I think on a standard Bb lead pipe he has said many times the "note to strive for" is "F". Much of the time I think he used a separate lead pipe and did not remove his trpt tuning slide. He might have picked up the wrong pipe occasionally from a previous lesson? It was pretty obvious we weren't matching that day and he wanted to match me. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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Wondra Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 537
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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The point of maximized resonance, for a pipe of a specific length, will be the same every time. When I take my Bach to lessons and we play the leadpipe back and forth, we are both playing the sound of concert Eb because we both have the same Bach leadpipe. When I take my Del Quadro to lessons, my point of maximized resonance is 1/2 step lower (concert D) because the pipe is a different length. _________________ Dave Wondra
Don't make me get the flying monkeys... |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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A reverse lead pipe is longer than a standard by about 1/2 step. It would be counter productive to try to lip up a reverse to a standard. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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hose wrote: | ... Much of the time I think he used a separate lead pipe and did not remove his trpt tuning slide. He might have picked up the wrong pipe occasionally from a previous lesson? It was pretty obvious we weren't matching that day and he wanted to match me. |
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Thanks for explaining - I thought you meant Adam gave you a different leadpipe that was more suitable to your 'pitch concept'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:25 am Post subject: |
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hose wrote: | JayKosta wrote: | hose wrote: | A couple of times during my lessons Mr Adam chose a different lead pipe off the shelf after we blew the first notes. He wanted to find one that more closely matched my pitch. |
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Was that because you had a certain pitch in mind (perhaps a form of 'perfect pitch') and you had trouble adjusting to the 'out of tune' note that occurred with the leadpipe on your trumpet?
If the goal of 'leadpipe playing' is the development of a nice resonant sound, it makes sense to use a leadpipe that produces a pitch that does not upset/annoy the player. |
I think on a standard Bb lead pipe he has said many times the "note to strive for" is "F". Much of the time I think he used a separate lead pipe and did not remove his trpt tuning slide. He might have picked up the wrong pipe occasionally from a previous lesson? It was pretty obvious we weren't matching that day and he wanted to match me. |
Often Adam would go to where the student is and gradually lead them to where they should be. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | hose wrote: | JayKosta wrote: | hose wrote: | A couple of times during my lessons Mr Adam chose a different lead pipe off the shelf after we blew the first notes. He wanted to find one that more closely matched my pitch. |
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Was that because you had a certain pitch in mind (perhaps a form of 'perfect pitch') and you had trouble adjusting to the 'out of tune' note that occurred with the leadpipe on your trumpet?
If the goal of 'leadpipe playing' is the development of a nice resonant sound, it makes sense to use a leadpipe that produces a pitch that does not upset/annoy the player. |
I think on a standard Bb lead pipe he has said many times the "note to strive for" is "F". Much of the time I think he used a separate lead pipe and did not remove his trpt tuning slide. He might have picked up the wrong pipe occasionally from a previous lesson? It was pretty obvious we weren't matching that day and he wanted to match me. |
Often Adam would go to where the student is and gradually lead them to where they should be. |
So true. In so many facets. And we were barely aware.
_________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've read through this thread and a few others looking for an answer to something I've often wondered about with respect to Mr. Adam's use of the leadpipe, but haven't found it.
Why did Mr. Adam have students play on the leadpipe? I understand that he didn't encourage mouthpiece or lip buzzing on the grounds that they don't have the same reinforced standing wave that the trumpet does, and understand that the leadpipe has a feedback loop that's much more like the trumpet, but why not just play the trumpet in the first place? If it's critically important only to play the notes that the leadpipe will fully slot and resonate on (primarily concert Eb), unlike the Javier Gonzalez, or Robert Sullivan exercises people periodically reference, what's the benefit to using the leadpipe at all?
Is it psychological, as in, getting away from trumpet-oriented habits and judgments?
Is it because there's a bit less resistance, which might encourage using more air?
Is it that it's a bit more malleable than the trumpet because it doesn't slot so hard, which lets students initially miss by a bit and have room to move to zero in on the target after initiating the tone?
Is it something else entirely? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: | ...
Why did Mr. Adam have students play on the leadpipe? ... |
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Just guessing, but I think the simple answer is 'because it works'.
From the little I've read about Adam, I'd suspect that he also gave thought to 'why it works', and probably had his own knowledge and understanding about that - but likely he didn't believe it is important for the student to be concerned about those details. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2483 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:25 am Post subject: |
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It has been referred to as a reset point (I think Rashawn mentions this once) - a 'home base' of playing you can easily refer to.
It is easier to play the pipe with less tension; there's no expectation of a perfect trumpet sound so psychologically you are more relaxed; it is physically easier so on stiff/swollen chops it can help recenter you (on a warmup I personally think it feels good); if you find that reedy sound on the pipe it translates to a resonant trumpet tone (at least I find it does) and that is found by primarily listening (imo) - finding the resonant point etc... It is also somewhat meditative.
Many of the Adam experts will have their 2c, but that is what it is in my mind.
I would urge anyone serious to try to get with a someone as close to the source as possible; Charley Davis, Mark Minasian, Rashawn Ross, Gary Grant etc... there's loads of Adam guys out there. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: | I've read through this thread and a few others looking for an answer to something I've often wondered about with respect to Mr. Adam's use of the leadpipe, but haven't found it.
Why did Mr. Adam have students play on the leadpipe? I understand that he didn't encourage mouthpiece or lip buzzing on the grounds that they don't have the same reinforced standing wave that the trumpet does, and understand that the leadpipe has a feedback loop that's much more like the trumpet, but why not just play the trumpet in the first place? If it's critically important only to play the notes that the leadpipe will fully slot and resonate on (primarily concert Eb), unlike the Javier Gonzalez, or Robert Sullivan exercises people periodically reference, what's the benefit to using the leadpipe at all?
Is it psychological, as in, getting away from trumpet-oriented habits and judgments?
Is it because there's a bit less resistance, which might encourage using more air?
Is it that it's a bit more malleable than the trumpet because it doesn't slot so hard, which lets students initially miss by a bit and have room to move to zero in on the target after initiating the tone?
Is it something else entirely? |
From William Adam. "There has been much talk about buzzing the mouthpiece on the lips. I agree with some of these theories, when they do what they say they will do. However, I have often found that when we just buzz and purse the lips, the lips become too tense. If we can buzz the mouthpiece without getting tension behind the lips, we're in good shape. But more often than not, there is a tension behind the buzz, and I've tried to devise something that's more relaxed.
I have utilized old leadpipes. To try my exercise, first buzz your mouthpiece. Note that there is a certain amount of tension with that action. Now instead of buzzing your lips, just think of not pre-setting the embouchure in any way, shape or form, but just place the mouthpiece in the lead pipe and think of moving your air through that tube. Does that seem easier than buzzing the mouthpiece?
I know there has to be a certain amount of mouthpiece buzzing to warm up the resilience that we have to have here. But if we can set the mouthpiece and tube in vibration, the embouchure is much more relaxed. What we're trying to do is to get the air through that horn with the least amount of tension and the least amount of muscle." _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: |
From William Adam. "There has been much talk about buzzing the mouthpiece on the lips. I agree with some of these theories, when they do what they say they will do. However, I have often found that when we just buzz and purse the lips, the lips become too tense. If we can buzz the mouthpiece without getting tension behind the lips, we're in good shape. But more often than not, there is a tension behind the buzz, and I've tried to devise something that's more relaxed.
I have utilized old leadpipes. To try my exercise, first buzz your mouthpiece. Note that there is a certain amount of tension with that action. Now instead of buzzing your lips, just think of not pre-setting the embouchure in any way, shape or form, but just place the mouthpiece in the lead pipe and think of moving your air through that tube. Does that seem easier than buzzing the mouthpiece?
I know there has to be a certain amount of mouthpiece buzzing to warm up the resilience that we have to have here. But if we can set the mouthpiece and tube in vibration, the embouchure is much more relaxed. What we're trying to do is to get the air through that horn with the least amount of tension and the least amount of muscle." |
Thanks for sharing that Billy B - I've read a fair amount of what's written here, but I don't think I've seen that particular passage. However, I'm still not clear on why he advocated for the leadpipe exercise rather than just playing the trumpet in the first place. Wouldn't all the things he's describing here be equally (or more) true on the trumpet? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3349 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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My thought about 'why not the entire trumpet' is because that might add the psychological stress to 'make a good trumpet sound'.
With just the mpc and leadpipe the player is relieved of the burden of having to sound like a trumpet - just blow and make 'whatever' sound happens. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | My thought about 'why not the entire trumpet' is because that might add the psychological stress to 'make a good trumpet sound'.
With just the mpc and leadpipe the player is relieved of the burden of having to sound like a trumpet - just blow and make 'whatever' sound happens. |
Personally, I think that makes sense, but given that Mr. Adam was evidently an unusually observant and innovative (among many other good qualities, obviously) teacher, I'm hoping that someone who studied with him might have heard him give an answer to the question I'm asking, rather than just speculation. |
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BRSpringer Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003 Posts: 115 Location: Lee's Summit, MO
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Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t post very often here on TH, but I did study with Mr. Adam from 1980 on. While he never addressed with me as to why we start with the leadpipe, I believe I can give you a legitimate answer based on many years of starting my playing days with the leadpipe, my 37 years of private teaching, and numerous discussions with my colleagues from the Adam studio.
Starting the playing day with the leadpipe serves several purposes: It gets the breath moving, it warms up the embouchure, and most importantly, I believe, it quiets the mind. Our focus is on a full breath, concentrating on moving warm, moist air through the pipe with a steady sound. Without the trumpet, we are not judgmental, nor do we dwell on the mechanics or the physical sensations we experience first thing in the morning ( “That doesn’t feel right,” “That feels awful!” “That sounds like crap!”). After several minutes of playing the pipe, I find that my first notes on the trumpet ( either long tones or some type of flow studies) sound much better than if I had started without the pipe. I remember Adam’s quote on starting the first note on the assembled trumpet: “You blow through the horn the same way you do on the pipe. Nothing changes.”
Your sound is firmly embedded in your mind and now with the breath energized, you are ready to go.
Barry |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:48 am Post subject: |
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That's great Barry - thanks for sharing that! It really is a great luxury on this forum having people who can pass along this kind of knowledge and experience. |
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