The only way to settle the argument about tongue level and a

[dbacon]

DB

[comebackkid]

Before I start, please let me make this clear. I am not trying to be confrontational. I just want to respond to some things that have been said here.

Lee...I Think it is fantastic that you are doing what you are. I respect you very much for your inquisitive nature, and for your approach. I do, however, come to a differing conclusion than you.

The Bio-Feedback system you used employs sensors to detect whether muscle tissue is in a state of flexion, and perhaps to what degree it is being flexed(please correct me if I am wrong). You detected tension in the tissue under the jaw (part of the tongue muscle), and concluded that is was caused by flexion of other muscles in the embouchure. You further concluded that this flexion of the tongue caused it to "rise while ascending".

First of all, observing that the tongue is in a state of flexion simultaneously with other muscles of the embouchure does not establish a causal relationship. There may be one. There may not.

Secondly, the presence of tension in the tongue does not dictate its position or direction of movement.

A laboratory is not required for most people to confirm this.
- Flex your tongue as hard as you can.
- Can you move it up? Easily.
- Can you move it down? Just as easily.
- Can you move it sided to side? No problem

Now try this:
- flex the muscles of your lips/face
- Can you move your tongue up? Easily.
- Can you move it down? Just as easily.
- Can you move it sided to side? No problem


Regarding the old flouroscope study:

A simple question was asked. Do we raise our tongue when we ascend?
The Fluoroscope provided a simple answer. Yes we do.

Whether consciously, or unconsciously, our body finds what works, and does it.

We are all capable of placing our tongues wherever we want to (that sounds bad huh?), but the fluoroscope shows that we raise it while ascending. We do so because it helps, not because we can’t help it.

Lee stated the following regarding the old fluoroscope study:

"Although some of the testers were not thinking along these lines and seemed to of had an agenda in promoting or trying to validate notions that the rising tongue is largely responsible for pitch change and faster air."

Once again, A simple question was asked. Do we raise our tongue when we ascend?
The Fluoroscope provided a simple answer. Yes we do.

Lee....Your response is essentially "yes, but....."

I could just as easily say it is you that has an agenda, but I doubt that is the case. The fact is (at least I hope) that we are all just trying to find the truth. Currently, we are drawing different conclusions, but perhaps that will not always be the case.

Please keep up the research Lee. How else will we ever know the truth? Maybe you will change my perspective. Maybe you will change your own. Maybe both!

I wish I could find time to assist you. Unfortunately it is not possible. Right now I am preparing to take my son in for his second heart surgery over the course of only a week. It is taking all of my energy just to keep the families spirits high. It does put other things (like this debate) into a little better perspective though.

Bless you all!

Ed Gabriel (comebackkid)

P.S. - Again, please take no offense. I merely wanted to explain where I disagree and why.

[bj]

[comebackkid]

Thanks a lot Brian,
the support is really appreciated!

[William Bentley]

Lee
Thank you for bringing some fresh air to this tired old debate about air speed and pitch.
I have a question for you. When you were studying and researching about muscles which work together in playing was there a particular embouchure formation that was better. Were the air speeds different with the different embouchure styles that you tested?

Your reply appreciated

William