Why C?

[Hokie_Pokie]

I realize that this is probably a pretty silliy question, but what are the benefitsof/reason's for using a C horn? I know that they are used mostly by Orchestral players, which confuses me even more, because the "classical sound" is usually described as being darker,, etc... and I would think that the lower pitched B-flat would aid in this? Clarification (sp?) would be much appreciated.

[plp]

Two advantages. If you are playing out of a hymnal or piano book, you don't have to transpose. And if what I have read on the subject is applicable, the C trumpet is better for chamber music or small ensemble where the trumpet is not meant to project to the degree a normal B flat would.

[redface]

In terms of transposition a C trumpet makes it easier because it is in a neutral key (no sharps or flats). But in Britain B flat is the normal trumpet used in orchestras. But british orchestras sound darker than US orchestras. I guess it's just what's fashionable at the moment.

[thelurker]

SOUND!!!

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I wouldn't call that a silly question at all.

If you want to be a little bit cynical about it, the simple answer is, "Because Bud Herseth played a C trumpet." That certainly accounts for why it's so popular in North America but much less so in Europe, but there's more to it than that.

There are three basic kinds of reasons: sound, accuracy, and convenience.

From a sound standpoint (admittedly the most subjective), I think most of us who play C trumpet feel that it projects better and the sound holds together better at extremely loud dynamics. I believe it's a misconception to say that the orchestral sound is dark; I think it's better to say that it's broad. My sound at mezzo-forte may not be quite as rich on C trumpet as on B flat, but it's more focussed and at loud dynamics it's much less likely to break up. The Herseth influence comes into play here, too: because most orchestral players are heavily influenced by Herseth's sound, there's a natural tendency to gravitate towards equipment similar to his.

Before the C trumpet became standard in North America, a lot of orchestral players played D (or E flat) trumpet quite a bit. The C trumpet, for me at least, is quite a bit easier to handle around the top of the staff than B flat, so it helps me maintain an acceptable standard of accuracy without resorting to E flat trumpet. I would rather play a high A on C trumpet than a high B on B flat, even though it's exactly the same length of tubing. I don't know why, it just is.

Finally, a lot of orchestral parts are in sharp keys, and/or written in transpositions from sharp keys (trumpet in A, D, or E). Playing in those keys on B flat trumpet is kind of a nuisance, and you tend to end up playing some of the bum notes on the trumpet -- like G# at the top of the staff -- a lot more often. Playing C trumpet more or less avoids some of those issues.

I hope that clears things up a little.

[Nichols902]

I agree with everyone. But i might add, i personally LOVE playing my C. The horn feels and sounds better to me.
_________________
Mt.Vernon Stradivarius C serial #23xxx
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[Tom K.]

But isn't there an older tradition than Herseth of playing C trumpet or cornet in band? And using C for the vocal parts on songs with piano accompaniment (turn of the century). That's what I like to use my C cornet for. I read recently that Vincent Bach thought the most beautiful sound he got from a horn was from the C cornet.

[trumpetmike]

As has already been stated, the standard here in the UK is for the Bb trumpet as your main instrument, although the C is becoming very popular as well.
The transposition element is really not the issue, if you are serious about orchestral playing you should (in the words of my teacher throughout university) “be able to transpose from any letter of the alphabet to any other, on anything.”
Personally I prefer the sound I achieve using my Bb, but this could be for the reason that I am more used to using it. I have been using a Bb trumpet for over 20 years, whilst my C trumpet was only purchased a few years ago and has only started to be used on gigs in the past couple.
At least one of the groups I play with regularly has a section, all of which are happy on either Bb or C trumpet. We use the instrument that is most appropriate for the style we are playing (if it is an American programme we tend to go for C trumpets, if a British one, Bb, French C, German, Rotary Bb etc), if it means sometimes transposing a Bb part whilst playing a C trumpet, so be it.
The possibility of American players using a C trumpet for their orchestral work due to the influence of Bud Herseth is one I can understand. Players will always want to emulate the greats. The tradition here is to play everything on a Bb, in the manner of Maurice Murphy.
Another reason for why we use the Bb trumpet more than the C is the great tradition of the brass band in this country. If you have played a Bb cornet every day in a brass band (as many of the top orchestral players have done), you will feel more at home on a Bb trumpet.
A couple of things have puzzled me about using the C trumpet. Parts such as Carmen (with that notorious excerpt descending to the depths) become almost impossible. It is hard enough to play a decent low F on a Bb trumpet, I don’t know what other people find, but my low Eb on my C trumpet is terrible. The other puzzling thing is jazz. You have many players who are excellent orchestral players who then turn their hand to jazz come nighttime. They then have to alter their way of thinking, picking up a Bb and leaving the C in the case. If the C is the way forward, surely they should be going for a C in all situations. If they like the sound of a Bb, why not use this in an orchestral situation? It could leave them free to concentrate on the music, rather than having to use a bit of the brain to cope with the instrument change.
I have heard two schools of thought about which instrument to use. The first states that “play it on whichever instrument sounds best” the other “whichever instrument it was written for.” The first of these is a very popular one. If something is easier on one sort of instrument (therefore more likely to go well), you play it on that instrument. This one tends to require stunning transposition, but that should be in the abilities of all trumpet players – you will need it! The second is a good one for the purist argument, as it can easily be taken to extremes. If a part is written for C trumpet, you play it on a C trumpet, if for a Bb, use a Bb and so on. The great advantage of this method is that you don’t ever need to transpose, but there are many problems. You need to spend a fortune on instruments (one for every key!), you don’t get used to having a main instrument and you run into a problem with “historically aware performance practice.” If you are using an A trumpet for Carmen (which if you haven’t tried it, it is lovely!), should this also mean you use a large F trumpet for Elgar and Sibelius? Should we be using a keyed trumpet for the Haydn and Hummel? Should we all be carrying around a natural trumpet in F ready for the Brandenburg??
I tend to go for a bit of each. If a part says that it is a cornet part (Petrouchka springs to mind), I prefer to play it on a cornet because I prefer the sound. Some conductors have also started requesting that you do so. I have a beautiful old Bb/A trumpet that is magnificent for Carmen, not only does it remove the need for transposition (not that this should ever be an issue, as already mentioned) but it gives you the low note with tone, no faking required. I have also found that it blends very well if used in the orchestra. It doesn’t have that strident quality that seems to be popular at the moment, but I like it.
If you are going to play everything on one instrument, I do think you should have a good understanding of other instruments and sound. Even in the C trumpet world, there is a change in timbre from the way they are played in the US, UK and France, the latter of which has a very strong tradition of C trumpet playing. If you play all three in the same way, I think you should do more timbral research.
If a baroque part is for a D trumpet, we nearly all play it on a piccolo in A, but if you have ever heard the natural trumpet being played properly you will know that it is actually a much mellower instrument and can blend very well with wind, strings or even the human voice. If we have this sound concept in our heads before we pick up a piccolo we can open up whole new worlds of understanding with this music.
Well, this was only meant to be a short little post, oops!
Sometimes things just start to flow when posting on TH.
I do not claim to be any great authority; these have just been my humble opinions, from my experiences.
_________________
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[fuzzyjon79]

I would use C trumpet pretty much all the time because the only steady gig I have is my church gig every Saturday and Sunday and it would sound very good in the church hall. The only reason I use B flat is because the orchestra director doesn't think it will blend well with the other B flats.
_________________
J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Tom K. --

Certainly, Herseth wasn't the first to use a C trumpet. His teachers were French, and the French have a long tradition of using C trumpets. However, in 1948 when Herseth became principal trumpet in the CSO there were a lot more orchestras in North America playing B flat trumpets than there are today. Part of the change may be due to the fact that trumpet players are required to play louder and more accurately than in the past, but certainly Herseth has been the gold standard for so long that it's impossible to overstate his influence. As for the tradition of using C cornet, that's largely a different issue. I think it's fair to say that the uses you describe are in situations where the sole purpose of using an instrument pitched in C is to avoid transposition. That's certainly in keeping with why some amateurs buy C trumpets, but it's not why orchestral professionals do so.

trumpetmike --

I think there is a little bit of a transposition advantage on C trumpet. Obviously, it's what I'm used to, but I much prefer to read parts in E or A on C trumpet. It's not that I can't do the transpositions, it's just more convenient. Certainly, this isn't the main reason I use a C trumpet but it does come into play from time to time -- for instance, I recently played L'historie du soldat and borrowed a colleague's C cornet rather than deal with the transposition on my B flat.

As for the low passage in Carmen (or other passages with low E's or E flats, such as Ein Heldenleben), the tradition here is to play those passages on B flat trumpet. Most players will still play the bulk of the part on C trumpet, though. One of my teachers did have a four-valve C trumpet, but it's the only one I've ever seen. Other than that, it's highly irregular for anybody to attempt anything lower than a low F on C trumpet.

At the risk of sounding condescending, my experience has been that for whatever reason, British players are much more uncomfortable switching back and forth between B flat and C than North Americans. (This certainly isn't based on a comprehensive survey, but I have spoken to a couple of pretty prominent players who readily admit to being utterly uncomfortable on C trumpet.) I have to assume it's simply a question of custom -- it's a lot easier to get used to a C trumpet in university (or in high school, as is happening more and more) than it is after playing professionally for a couple of decades or more. I will admit that I don't particularly relish having to play B flat trumpet, but it only takes me a couple of days to get used to it again when I need to. A lot of players over here warm up and do their daily routines on B flat trumpet, even though they perform almost exclusively on C. As for the issue of jazz -- well, if I'm expected to play jazz, switching horns is the least of my worries!

[ This Message was edited by: Nonsense Eliminator on 2003-09-05 09:44 ]