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Large Bore vs. Medium Bore



 
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E_Hi_Screamer15
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Large Bore vs. Medium Bore Reply with quote

Large Bore vs. Medium Bore.
Which one gives a darker warmer sound?
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sunburstbasser
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bore doesn't have much to do with tone, more with feel. You might get a little bit broader sound with a larger bore, but it won't be as big a difference as by a long shot as using a bigger mouthpiece or larger bell flare.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Large Bore vs. Medium Bore Reply with quote

E_Hi_Screamer15 wrote:
Large Bore vs. Medium Bore.
Which one gives a darker warmer sound?


Screamer,

You're asking all the good questions. You can search the archives for a bunch of great discussions on bore, bell tapers, dark vs bright, etc. Or you can stick around and get them new here. It's a great place to get Trumpet Basics 101 stuff.

My experience with various bore sizes is that the size of the sound is what is affected most. It's not the same as loudness, but has to do with the amount of space the sound occupies at its core. Pretty esoteric, right? The differences as small, but noticeable if you can hear them side by side. It is most obvious between Medium bore horns and Large bore horns.

"Dark" has more to do with materials used, mouthpipe tapers, and bell tapers.

Brian
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian, we'll chat about this on Saturday for sure, and I know you've spent a lot of time on the subject, but from my experience, bell flare, materials, mouthpiece and the sound in your head (more than any of the former) will contribute more to sound differences than bore size. Bud Herseth spent a huge chunk of his career playing a .438 bore Conn with the a Bach 7C before he hurt his chops and switched to a Bach 1. Maynard sounded his best, IMO, on his .438 Connstellation, Lew Soloff can bury the band with his small bore NY Bach, and Louis played a medium bore Selmer. Great soloists all, and certainly all with different sound concepts, but they each opted for smaller setups. Works best for me in most every situation.

Ed
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
Brian, we'll chat about this on Saturday for sure, and I know you've spent a lot of time on the subject, but from my experience, bell flare, materials, mouthpiece and the sound in your head (more than any of the former) will contribute more to sound differences than bore size. Bud Herseth spent a huge chunk of his career playing a .438 bore Conn with the a Bach 7C before he hurt his chops and switched to a Bach 1. Maynard sounded his best, IMO, on his .438 Connstellation, Lew Soloff can bury the band with his small bore NY Bach, and Louis played a medium bore Selmer. Great soloists all, and certainly all with different sound concepts, but they each opted for smaller setups. Works best for me in most every situation.

Ed


Ed,

You are the guy who introduced me to a variety of medium bore horns, all of them good. I agree with what you wrote about tapers and such. I have rarely engaged in "This sound is better than that sound" arguments. I try to identify what does what.

Many folks claim that bore has no affect on sound, but I have heard differences that are consistent between bore sizes. I have sought to try and define what it is I hear.

Flip is the one that coined the phrase "size of the sound". He and I have, on a few occasions, brought several horns to the sanctuary where you and I A/B'd our stuff and have spent hours listening to sound, parts of sound, timbres, etc.

In a trumpet sound, I've been able to identify at least these distinct characteristics:

Timbre - low, mid and high harmonics and the balance between them; dark, bright, etc.

Contour - hard to define. Something like a graphic equalizer. This is where we get "the Bach sound" or "the West Coast sound."

Projection - the ability to cast the sound forward; angle and shape.

Dynamic range - the low and high volume extremes before tone shift or degradation.

Response - resistance or freedom to move through musical passages.

Size - Volumetric space the core sound inhabits.

Intensity - concentration of sound energy.

Confidence - tentativeness or immediacy in the sound.

These are in addition to the more basic things like intonation and accuracy of scale. Some of these are design limitations, like projection angle. Others are ranges that are only identified over time and by more than one player in order to filter out those characteristics that are consistent throughout.

Some of them, like Confidence, are characteristics of the player/horn relationship. One would think that a player's main ax would communicate confidence the most, but almost every time I've heard a player pick up either a Wild Thing or Celebration, there has been an obvious step up in confidence in the sound. For you, Ed, I heard it most in your Holton, which I understand you don't play very often anymore.

Brian
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, you should write a book about that! Seriously unique take on sound. btw I attribute what you heard on the Holton ST 301, a large bore horn to its fast tapered/wide bell flare and non-tapered larger than usual leadpipe more than bore size. I played it against a Bach 37 ML not too long ago down at Adam Music in West LA and the Bach beat the crap out of my Holton. I'd do a rematch but the first valve is hanging up bad on my old baby. Have to get that fixed soon.

Very interesting take nevertheless.

ed
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
they each opted for smaller setups. Works best for me in most every situation.


I'd be curious to see what these"small setups" were. I'm not a betting man, but I suspect that they balanced a smaller bore horn with a larger backbore and possibly even drill size in their mpc. That's a very workable configuration that can give great dynamic range and sound.

I still like my .470's though
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
Dude, you should write a book about that! Seriously unique take on sound. btw I attribute what you heard on the Holton ST 301, a large bore horn to its fast tapered/wide bell flare and non-tapered larger than usual leadpipe more than bore size. I played it against a Bach 37 ML not too long ago down at Adam Music in West LA and the Bach beat the crap out of my Holton. I'd do a rematch but the first valve is hanging up bad on my old baby. Have to get that fixed soon.

Very interesting take nevertheless.

ed


I've said it before. You're 301 plays like nothing else I've ever come across and I really liked it. Mechanically, it's not my favorite. But no other trumpet I've played has given me the same feeling that the bell was supporting my tone and range.

In no way stuffy, there was this spandex feeling to the blow and a brilliant liveliness to the sound that was as addicting as it was unique. Not the most versatile of sounds, but it got my attention!

Brian
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ThatDude
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when you go to a bodybuilding website, everybody posts pics of their muscles. In a fashion forum, people post their clothes. I never understood why people in a trumpet forum don't post clips. That way other posters can understand where that person is coming from. I say that because many people say that they get a huge dark sound on a 10 1/4 D or a medium bore 38 b or something and I have serious doubts. Why? Because after playing bright equipment long enough the body adapts and mellows the sound. We think it's gotten dark, but it hasn't. Grab a bigger mouthpiece and the difference is obvious.

So in regards to the topic I will say large bores are generally darker than a medium bore horn all else remaining equal. Why? I've heard many players play medium bores and they never sound dark. I've heard Faddis play his schilke 3 feet away from me and sound huge, but not dark. Tom Harrell? Not dark. Lew Soloff? Not dark, plus it's impossible to guess what his playing without looking at him.

Lastly, it seems the only people I've heard talk about a dark sound on small equipment are lead players, who generally have a faulty notion of darkness by definition.
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sunburstbasser
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chet Baker and Freddie Hubbard sounded pretty dark on their 38Bs.
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ThatDude
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sunburstbasser wrote:
Chet Baker and Freddie Hubbard sounded pretty dark on their 38Bs.




I though about them, but they both played horns like bachs and I'm not sure what cuts the 38 b where on. Thats relevant considering both sounded bright sometimes. Freddie hubbard's "watermelon man" is a good example.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference in overall interior volume between a large bore (.468) and a medium large bore (.460) trumpet is only about .33 cubic inch, assuming that the differential is a consistent .008 throughout the entire length of the horn including the mouthpiece receiver, tuning slude, 1st, 2nd and 3rd valve slides, bell section, through the pistons, etc. It's not enough difference to make a difference, all other things (materials, tapers, etc.) remaining constant, except in a very technical sense.

Since "bore size" is typically measured at the inner diameter of the 2nd valve slide, a "large bore" of one model could have less interior volume than a "medium large bore" model of another horn if the only thing that is actually "larger" is the 2nd valve slide.

The natural timbre of a horn is primarily a function of materials and tapers. Of course, the bell taper/flare is of especially great influence.

Of all the trumpets I own (over 50), the horn with the darkest natural sound is my 1956 Conn Connstellation 38B, which is a .438 bore, and I have many large bore trumpets to compare it to (Chicago Benge LB, Burbank Benge 6X, CG Benge, 1949 French Besson Meha, Blessing Super Artist, Holton ST-302 (MF horn), Holton ST-200 (Bud Brisbois Model), Schilke X4, Bach Strad 25, Callet Superchops, Callet Jazz, Wild Thing and last, but not least, a 1913 Conn .484 bore).
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Mike Lockman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to hijack but is there a way to attach sound clips to our signature??
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
EdMann wrote:
they each opted for smaller setups. Works best for me in most every situation.


I'd be curious to see what these"small setups" were. I'm not a betting man, but I suspect that they balanced a smaller bore horn with a larger backbore and possibly even drill size in their mpc. That's a very workable configuration that can give great dynamic range and sound.

I still like my .470's though


Yes, quite often. Lew has been known to gravitate to larger mpc's with moderate drill outs (a 24, for example), and used mpc switching to gain or lose darkness. His medium Sonare gives him a "more compact sound" as he demonstrated for me once, and looked for any other changes in dark/bright from the mpc(s). Uan Rasey famously played ML Olds and Kings throughout his great career and used a very large mpc, particuarly for a lead / first chair player, a Bach 1X I believe, which "gave me the sound I wanted."

And Tom Harrell not dark? What is he then, a lead player? Jeez.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bore size is just one of many many variables that affect playability and sound. In addition we all hear and describe things a little differently. Even with sound clips here the sound will only be as good as the crappy little speakers on our computers. There are just too many factors to consider that go into the mix to boil it down to only bore size.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Freddie played a 8b or 6b. It's on my "In Concert" 1973 album with Turrentine, Hancock, DeJonette, Carter and Gale. It's anything but "dark". I've got a dvd of Horace Silver from Umbria 1976. While Harrell's sound is electrifying, it's nowhere "dark". I've heard Freddie many times live on the Calicchio - not "dark". I call the difference between the M, ML and the L "depth of tone".
Flip and I can play the same horn with similar mouthpiece - he sounds much "darker" . . .
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Herbie's Watermelon Man off the "Isles" CD, he played a Conn 28A cornet (which I'll be playin' this weekend). Gorgeous sound on that horn. Freddie had so much going on with his sound, I don't think it can be categorized as dark or penetrating or bright. It was all of that, and he got it regardless of his equipment.

ed
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65strad
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerry Schwarz played a M bore 37 Strad with a 5C mouthpiece. What ever the physics involved are, I would be very fortunate be be able to sound a fraction as good as him.

Obviously its the person playing it more than the horn, however Gerry sure got a great sound from that horn.
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